Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Maggie.
[00:00:00] Speaker B: And I'm Nicole. Welcome to DAC Dyslexia and Coffee Podcast. We are so happy that you could join us. We are both moms and dyslexia interventionists who want to talk about our students and children. What dyslexia is, how it affects our kids, strategies to help and topics related to other learning disabilities will all be covered in this podcast. Parents are not alone, and we want to give a voice to the concerns and struggles we are all having. This is a safe place to learn more about how to help our children grow and succeed in school, in the world. Grab a cup of coffee and enjoy the conversation.
[00:00:37] Speaker A: Hi, everybody. So we like to start our episodes with the concept of the week. The concept of the week is our opportunity to pull down the curtain a little bit and show parents out there what are the kinds of things we talk about in intervention. So the last couple episodes we've been talking about syllables and the different kinds of syllables. So just as a reminder to everybody, a syllable is a word or part of a word with one vowel sound.
The type of syllable we're going to talk about today is an R controlled vowel.
This is where we have a vowel followed immediately by the letter R.
The R makes a significant impact on the vowel sound. So example, the word car that AR says ar, which is a little bit different than a short A sound, which would be a.
[00:01:41] Speaker B: So today we're talking about the difference between a 504 plan and an IEP.
These are both school plans that you have to qualify for.
So we're going to start off with a 504 plan.
This is a plan that helps a student have equal access to school and curriculum. It's covered under the section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act. A 504 plan is not included in special education and is covered under different laws.
[00:02:12] Speaker A: An IEP or Individualized Education Plan.
[00:02:17] Speaker B: Thank you.
504 plans provide students with accommodations.
They are not limited to schools. They can also be in any public community location.
[00:02:29] Speaker A: That's right. So under section 504 of the Rehabilitation act, no person can be discriminated against receiving services if that institution is receiving federal funding. So this is the section of the law that would include lots of different things, right? Like access ramps to public buildings, different access points in public parks. Any service that receives any federal funding at all has to comply with section 504. So that, of course, does include schools, really, any school, if they're. If they are receiving any federal dollars at all. So even private schools, if they are receiving any federal Dollars at all they have to comply with section 504. This is also the type of plan most of our students who do have, let's say an IEP in high school, if they are going on to any kind of post secondary education, that IEP is not going to follow them. But their section 504 plan may they need to follow up with kind of the powers that be at those individual institutions.
But that is one of the main differences there. We are talking about different law, different legislation is in charge of that section 504 plan.
[00:04:10] Speaker B: In the 504 plan, they it removes barriers to learning.
[00:04:17] Speaker A: So with a 504 plan, and probably side note here, we get asked what the heck is the difference between a 504 and an IEP? A lot. So we're gonna, we're gonna really walk through those two things today.
With a 504 plan, right? Schools look at the information about a student from a few different sources. So the source might be a medical diagnosis. Schools might also look at the student's grade test scores and teacher recommendations.
This is a plan you would need to qualify for. Like we said before, families or schools, this could be initiated from a teacher or it could be initiated from a family member.
They can request a 504 plan through the school district's 504 coordinator.
This person might be the same as the IEP coordinator. Often that is true, but it could be a different person as well. If you're not sure who the 504 coordinator of your school is, ask an administrator.
Most teachers really should know who their 504 coordinator is for at least their building, if not their district.
But asking an administrator, a lot of times this would be a school psych for the principal. The principal sometimes too could be the director of special education.
Even though that doesn't necessarily mean that the student is in special education, that it just could look different at every district. So kind of to find that out, ask an administrator.
[00:06:23] Speaker B: The request must be in writing.
And then the school will then hold a meeting to decide if the child or student qualifies for that support, what supports and what might be appropriate for them.
[00:06:37] Speaker A: That's right. So important to Note that a 504 plan is a legally binding document, just like an IEP is. However, most schools do invite families to the 504 meeting.
But unlike an IEP, this is actually not a requirement.
[00:07:07] Speaker B: So some examples that can be Included in a 504 plan are things like extended time on assignments, testing in an alternative setting test, and assignments read out loud to the Student or use of different assistive technologies.
[00:07:27] Speaker A: Yeah, that's right. So a big takeaway here is that typically a 504 plan really just covers accommodations.
Remember, accommodations are changes to the learning environment that do not involve changing any curriculum or expectations of a student either what they're going to learn or what they need to prove that they have learned.
Typically, this 504 plan is not going to include modifications where we are changing the curriculum in some way. So this plan does not include remediation of skills when we're talking about dyslexia.
Let's just drill down on that for a minute.
[00:08:20] Speaker B: Right.
[00:08:21] Speaker A: So if we are Talking about a 504 plan for a student with dyslexia, the 504 plan can be really robust in terms of accommodations, but it will not cover remediation of skills as in explicit instruction of those basic phonics skills that often are lacking really any reading basic skills. We're not talking about drilling down on fluency or comprehension. We're not talking about a plan to increase that dyslexic student's underlying skills.
We would need an IEP plan for that.
[00:09:09] Speaker B: And what is an iep? Well, it stands for Individualized Education Program.
The purpose of an IEP is to lay out the special education instruction, supports and services a student's need to thrive in school.
[00:09:25] Speaker A: That's right. So IEP plans are part of the pre K through 12th grade public education law. IEPs are written legally legal documents and IEPs are covered by the special education law or the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act. IDEA A.
[00:09:58] Speaker B: IEPs give students and families legal protections. So they are a part of public and charter schools.
So even before they attend school, baby and toddlers can also get service through early intervention.
So once a student or a child turns three, they can get an IP through their local public school district.
[00:10:20] Speaker A: That's right.
[00:10:21] Speaker B: A lot of times I know that if your student qualifies for birth to three, the birth to three provider will contact the school before they turn three and have them come assess them to see if they are eligible for the IEP at the school.
[00:10:37] Speaker A: Yeah, that's right. As that birth to three, it's a little bit of a different acronym. And again, yes, different law as well. Usually that's called an individual service plan or isp.
Again, we just really love.
[00:10:57] Speaker B: Really love.
[00:10:58] Speaker A: The edge, the acronyms in this field. It can all be kind of overwhelming and confusing because I have heard and worked with a lot of parents who really are just overwhelmed. Right. They're just trying to get It Right. And sometimes they will use that terminology kind of interchangeably.
And it is important, I think, to have a good understanding of. Actually, they really are quite different because the legal protections afforded to somebody with an IEP are much, much stronger than the legal protections afforded under 504.
[00:11:43] Speaker B: So what is interesting is that there are no IPs in college, but students can go to the accommodations department for the school and get some services.
[00:11:56] Speaker A: And again, those would be covered under section 504 of the Rehab Act.
[00:12:04] Speaker B: So in the process of getting an IEP is very different than a 504 plan.
So a school or a family, just like a 504 plan, can start the process of an IEP.
Obviously, again, you would want to start that process in writing, and families need to give consent to the school to start the process, and then that starts the testing process.
[00:12:30] Speaker A: That's right. So, kind of side note, we're actually going through this right now in real time as we're talking.
My daughter, who is in 4K, is going through a speech and language evaluation right now. And even though I am a special education teacher and have gone through this process many times from that perspective, it was kind of funny because the speech language pathologist, who does have a graduate student underneath her right now, we had had kind of a full conversation on the phone talking about the things that she would like to do. And I said, okay, great. You know, said goodbye. She had to call me back and say, you actually never said the words I consent or this is okay with me. So she actually had to call me back to get my legal consent. And then, of course, I did have to sign the paperwork, too, before she could do anything with my child. But it kind of made me laugh that, okay, here's a person I really should know that actually is expected of me, and I'm impressed that she called back and said, okay. You never actually said, it's a go.
[00:13:55] Speaker B: So if the IEP team decides your child qualifies for an iep, there's an eligibility meeting scheduled.
So this can include the parents, the teachers, the special education teachers, the school psychologist. So there's a huge team of people that get together for these meetings to get started.
[00:14:23] Speaker A: That's right.
The bare minimum personnel by law, that is required to be in that meeting, parents do need to attend. There is a process that schools can hold an IEP meeting without a parent present if they have shown three different modes of contact that they have tried to reach out to parents three times, and they do need to prove that that is true. Before they can go ahead with a meeting like this. But bare minimum, it's the parents. If the child is over the age of 14, child must be present in that meeting as well.
It does require whoever is going to be in charge of this iep. So whether that be a special education teacher or a speech and language pathologist, could be an occupational therapist, if that is the primary reason for the IEP as well.
And then they need to have what is called a local education agent, lea, that is an additional person from the school district who has authorization to basically dole out money. Right. Okay. Like there is a budget consideration here, so that LEA is kind of in charge of. Okay, are these services making sense? Does this kid indeed qualify? And what services are we really allowed to give this kid? Given the diagnosis, And I'm pretty sure.
[00:15:57] Speaker B: That occupational therapy is considered a secondary.
[00:16:01] Speaker A: There is a. It would be certainly if we're talking about dyslexia, but there actually is a full OT qualification for special education. If there is. If that is the only primary concern. That actually is one area that an OT could. This would be probably pretty involves kid. But yeah, there actually is one section for an IEP that an OT can be fully in charge. And this can vary by state too.
Let's be clear. We're really talking about the laws as it applies to the state of Wisconsin right now.
Even though this is federal law, each state decides which criteria they're going to, I guess, dole out or kind of who's responsible for who is a state by state decision.
So let's talk about what happens at that meeting.
[00:17:04] Speaker B: So if the child is eligible, the team will then start discussing the goals for the IEP and assigning who is in charge of the goals and which goals. Because there might be different members that do different things with each goal depending on what the goal is.
And then sometimes students who do not qualify for an ip, and so this may require the parents to ask for.
[00:17:34] Speaker A: Different things instead, which can include a 504 plan.
[00:17:39] Speaker B: Right.
So you can get maybe the. Just to provide the accommodations or other supports that a 504 plan can give you.
You can also look at getting an independent educational evaluation or an iee. There's another abbreviation which I have done in the past with my child.
And so this is when a professional outside of the school does the evaluation. And basically you ask for it in writing.
And then the school will give you providers that are allowed to come into the school. And you pick the provider and they perform the evaluation.
And then based on the results, there's another meeting, and then you see if you can get them to qualify for your IEP or not.
[00:18:34] Speaker A: That's right. So whether a child qualifies for an IEP or not is a team decision. There is deciding criteria. There's a checklist for each disability category.
And at an evaluation meeting, what is expected is that you go through each and every question, and they're like a yes or no question.
And then you decide together whether or not that answer is yes or no. And then even if we have said yes, sometimes, that student still may not be given that iep, which is a situation I've come across many times. It could be extremely frustrating.
This is where you can dispute the school is finding.
It does kind of come down to, like a majority rule situation sometimes.
And you can dispute those findings. You can go through mediation or you can file what's called a due process complaint.
[00:19:53] Speaker B: And this would be a whole nother episode.
That's it. There's a lot to that.
[00:19:58] Speaker A: Yes.
And exceedingly long taxing process.
I have been a part of due process complaints, and.
[00:20:12] Speaker B: Me too.
[00:20:12] Speaker A: Rough. Rough.
[00:20:15] Speaker B: So there are 13 areas that can qualify a student for an IEP.
So the first one is a specific learning disability. And this is where dyslexia would fall under a specific learning disability in reading, sometimes it's called. Yes.
A speech or language impairment, another health impairment. So our students with ADHD might fall in this category.
An autism spectrum disorder, intellectual disability, emotional disturbance, developmental delay, multiple disabilities. So you can qualify under a couple different things.
Hearing impairment, which includes deafness, orthopedic impairment, visual impairment, including blindness, a traumatic brain injury, or deafblindness together.
[00:21:13] Speaker A: That's right. So often, like Nicole said. Right. Often a student may have multiple areas that they would qualify for. A very frequent situation would be.
I had many students who qualified for an IEP under the ohi, other health impairment for adhd, and they also were found to have dyslexia or a. Another learning disability. And so they would have OHI and SLD or the other way around. So usually the way that's coded is there's going to be a primary and then a secondary, and the team does really decide what's primary and what's secondary.
[00:22:11] Speaker B: And because language is part of a lot of these diagnoses, that's usually, I would say, a lot of the time added as another. The speech and language impairment, because of articulation, receptive delay, social communication can fall there. Yep.
So speech and language therapists tend to be at a lot of the meetings just because they're involved with a lot of the students.
[00:22:44] Speaker A: Yeah.
Well, we really kind of hope that this episode at least helped clear up some of the. What is the difference here?
This is something again, we get asked very, very often. And it is one of those things I think is critical to understand.
You know, I guess to summarize a little bit. Right. 504. That means the 504 section 504 of the Rehabilitation act where IEP, Individualized Education Program or plan depends on the state too.
That is where we qualify under the Individuals with Disability Education Act.
An IEP would have a plan for both accommodations and modifications. We need to address the underlying skills there where a 504 plan really mainly sticks to that accommodation piece. Another really key difference between a 504 plan and an IE plan is both plans are reviewed annually, meaning every year.
And it usually is a team that meets. Either the IEP team or the 504 team meets to review the plan.
But for a student with an iep every three years, the student needs to go through what is called a RE evaluation.
That means this process actually starts seriously all over again. Where the school does need to contact you, the parent, get your consent to any kind of testing that would need to be done. Often that's updated academic testing.
Sometimes that can be an updated IQ score if we're looking at an older student, if we're trying to transition them out and really would depend on that student's goals. But any kind of formal testing that the school district is going to do above and beyond what they would be doing for any other student that has to be consented to. And that process really starts really all over again where.
Here we go again.
It's a lot like the booby Groundhog Day.
[00:25:20] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:25:21] Speaker A: All of this has happened before. Right.
[00:25:23] Speaker B: So I think some good tips to give parents for if you are going through this process. Make sure everything is in writing.
[00:25:29] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:25:30] Speaker B: And you keep everything because you never know what you're going to need down the road or what somebody said. Sometimes you need to refer back to it.
Keep like either if you do electronic versus paper, keep all your students information together that are. That's part of the iep.
So you can kind of see what their goals were too. Because every three years you're going to update those goals.
[00:25:58] Speaker A: That's right.
[00:25:59] Speaker B: And you're going to want to see if there's been any progress or not. And if not, then maybe the goals need to be revised a little bit more than just.
[00:26:08] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, so your goals, you're going to. You're going to update your goals every single year, but you may have to.
You're going to requalify for the education plan itself every three years. So that's where. Okay. Well, I have this neuropsych data that indicates xyz. I really want to make sure that this is in this evaluation report. And I really want to, as a parent, pay lots of attention to. There is an entire section which is now the i4, which is the present level section that is, you know, any parental concerns. A big red flag for me as a, like, outside person now not affiliated with the school is when I see that section. You know, mom has no concerns or mom just wants her kid to be happy. I mean, things like that.
[00:27:07] Speaker B: Whoa, whoa.
[00:27:09] Speaker A: That, that how much work is being done by that IEP team to really drill down then what are those concerns? And you can put data in there.
Parents are allowed to put that stuff in the iep.
[00:27:21] Speaker B: True. And if you disagree with anything that is said during the iep, that's in writing.
[00:27:27] Speaker A: That's right.
[00:27:27] Speaker B: You can have them add that to the iep that parent disagrees with this.
[00:27:33] Speaker A: That's correct.
[00:27:34] Speaker B: Which is a very good thing to know for having that documented for future meetings. And if, when you go to, like, a different school, like you go from elementary to middle school, you have a different team, then. So then they can see that that was something of concern before. And who knows what the new team is going to be like. Right. Because every team is different.
And I guess the other thing too is you can bring other people to these meetings.
[00:28:01] Speaker A: That's right.
[00:28:01] Speaker B: The parents can invite people to help them remember, take notes, ask questions.
Because it gets really overwhelming, these meetings. Well, our meetings always lasted like hours and hours, which is not typical, but we had some circumstances, so. But even in our meeting, there's a lot of information that's going to be given to you and presented to you and sometimes you need some time to absorb it. It's okay to say, I'm not going to sign that until after I think about it or read it.
[00:28:35] Speaker A: That's absolutely right. And I think another really critical thing to understand, often the parents I talk to who are kind of new to this believe that it is only the school who is allowed to call an IEP meeting. That is absolutely false. Any member of the IEP team can call an IEP meeting at any time.
[00:29:03] Speaker B: So that means you can do it before the. The whole year is done.
[00:29:06] Speaker A: That is correct.
You can do a review, revise. You can. There. There are A lot of things that you can do. An IEP is meant to be a living document, meaning we are supposed to be. I mean annual is a minimum, people, it is minimum that we review it every year. That's not, that's not the maximum.
The same really is true for a 504. You can request a 504 meeting. Yes. The rules are different for them.
Often a parent requesting another A504 meeting.
I don't have a lot of first hand experience with a school being non compliant with that.
I don't have a lot of anecdotal evidence that schools are not pretty open to that. That is, I don't ever want to say less of a big deal. That's not true. That is still a legally binding document. But most of the time calling for another 504. And hey, let's take a serious look at these accommodations.
I just never really experienced a school being very closed off to that. If a 504 plan already exists.
[00:30:24] Speaker B: That is right.
So yeah, at the end of each episode we'd like to kind of talk about what's going on in our lives right now.
[00:30:39] Speaker A: Yeah. So what is going on for me, I kind of talked about it a little bit earlier, but this has been an interesting school year as a parent. For the first time I'm going through this evaluation process.
Fresh set of eyes.
[00:30:56] Speaker B: It's very different on the other side.
[00:30:58] Speaker A: Very different on the other side.
So next week will be the actual first official meeting for the initial evaluation and then the determination for placement. I think maybe on some future episodes we can actually look at these IEP documents and talk about, okay, what does this even mean? Because it can be because there's a lot of pages, lots of pages, lots of legal language that we're here to help.
[00:31:33] Speaker B: Yeah.
And so for me, just bringing up like I have two children on an IEP currently, I can tell you it's been very different experiences for our son. We went through birth to 3 and right into 3k with special education for an IEP and my daughter. We had to fight for that first assessment. It took a lot.
And we are still.
We've been through the mediation process a few times. So that's something that we can talk about at a different time too. But my personal recommendation is to always bring someone with you to be a note taker and help you stay calm because you, it's your child, you're going to get upset if there is disagreements or things are happening that you don't agree with. So that's Right. I think it's also good to have somebody there just to keep you on track and.
[00:32:34] Speaker A: Yeah. Even to have another person's perspective.
[00:32:38] Speaker B: Right.
[00:32:39] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, our children, we're emotionally attached. That's part of the deal.
That's part of the deal.
But just having kind of a neutral person, I think that's always a really good tip to have in mind.
Even going to the doctor. Right. It's helpful to have someone else there.
[00:33:01] Speaker B: And go over your questions with them beforehand so they know what you want to ask. Because if you get off track because you're upset, they can bring it back.
[00:33:10] Speaker A: I mean, not every person person will do this, but a practice that I got used to doing as a special education teacher was sending out a sloppy copy of that IEP about a week before the meeting and having parents give it a once over, email me back questions that they had. I think that really made meetings go a lot smoother than they could do. Not every teacher is going to be willing to do that. But even looking then at last year's iep, okay, this is what went down last year. Here are my notes from last year. Reviewing that before the meeting can be another way that helps move those things along.
[00:33:59] Speaker B: Yes. So in closing, please follow us on social media and reach out if you have any questions or would like us to discuss a topic. And if you like our show, please follow us and rate up our show on your podcast players. This is how we reach more listeners.
[00:34:14] Speaker A: Thanks for listening.
[00:34:15] Speaker B: Thank you.
