Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hi, I'm Maggie.
[00:00:01] Speaker B: And I'm Nicole. Welcome to DAc Dyslexia and Coffee podcast. We are so happy that you could join us. We're both moms and dyslexia interventionists who want to talk about our students and children, what dyslexia is, how it affects our kids. Strategies to help and topics related to other learning disabilities will also be covered in this podcast.
Parents are not alone, and we want to give voice to the concerns and struggles we are all having. This is a safe place to learn more about how to help our children grow and succeed in school, in the world. Grab a cup of coffee and enjoy the conversation.
[00:00:36] Speaker A: Hi, everybody. Welcome to episode twelve of DAC Dyslexia and Coffee podcast. We like to start our episodes with the concept of the week. So this is our opportunity to pull down the curtain a little bit and talk about the things that we would be teaching them about in intervention sessions. So we've been doing a little study on syllables and syllable types. So, as a reminder, a syllable is a word or a part of a word with one vowel sound.
We have talked already about closed, open, and magic e syllables, and today we're going to talk about vowel team syllables. So a vowel team is where two or more letters work together to say one vowel sound. So, for example, in the word day ay is a vowel team that says a.
[00:01:42] Speaker B: So our topic today is what do all these different words mean when we are talking about structured literacy?
And what is structured literacy?
[00:01:53] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:01:54] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:01:54] Speaker A: I think one of, I think honestly, one of my favorite parts of this job, right, is when parents come to me and they're like, I don't even understand what these words mean can help. And the answer is yes. Yes, we can help.
Yes, there is a lot of dense language and specific language that is used in the dyslexia world, kind of in the teaching world in general, there tends to be a lot of Alphabet soup, right? A lot of things have acronyms. We're not really getting into many of those today, but we are going to really define. All right, what are we talking about when we say specific things? So the different language that we use in structured literacy interventions, it can be confusing, and this can be the area. Right. That, again, I get probably the most questions, especially when a parent is navigating a new diagnosis.
[00:03:01] Speaker B: Correct. So what is structured literacy?
[00:03:03] Speaker A: Aha. So let's start with that. Structured literacy is based on the science of how kids learn to read. So structured literacy means that our teaching is systematic and sequential. That means skills are taught in a way that they build on each other. Right. So a system means that we do something the same every time, and sequential means that they have a certain order. So we would always teach short vowels before we're going to teach vowel teams because we're also going to teach one syllable words before we teach multisyllable words.
[00:04:01] Speaker B: So this is where our lesson plans come in because they are done the same way every time a student comes in to see us.
[00:04:09] Speaker A: Yeah, that's exactly right.
And we're. We're always going to start with the most basic or most common, and then we're going to get more complex and less common.
So teachers who teach in this way. Right. We use explicit and direct instruction.
Explicit means that we're not leaving anything to chance.
Right. So we're not assuming that a kid comes to our office and already knows what a short vowel is, even if consonant is right, what a consonant is. What is a vowel. We're not leaving anything to chance. We're going to break it all the way down and use that really explicit language and be direct. Right. Direct instruction means it's teacher led.
We're not just having a kid read something and then say, oh, okay, well, now you know everything about vowel team ay, because I just had you read a lot of ay words.
No, that's not it.
It's the other way around. We're teaching them what that is. Then we're having them do a lot of practice with that.
So these new skills, right. They are modeled and they are explained when they're introduced.
[00:05:50] Speaker B: Yeah.
So we make sure that everything is clear and straightforward for the students.
And if we see the blank look on their face, we stop and go back.
[00:06:08] Speaker A: Yes, yes. We're not just assuming that they have gotten it the first time around ever.
Which kind of brings us to what is a scope and sequence.
[00:06:24] Speaker B: Yeah. A scope and sequence is really the order in which we teach the reading skills, and they go in a way that you build from the most common to the least common. So, like, at the beginning of our scope and sequence that we use, we're doing short vowels, consonants, very basic one syllable words. And then as we develop those, we move on to more difficult things where there's multi syllable words, there's more intense, maybe a little more confusing spelling rules, and so that our students can build on those.
[00:07:07] Speaker A: Yeah.
This is something, too, that we have a scope in sequence. We have a. Basically, it's a list of skills that we teach, and then the rough order in which we teach them based on who's in front of us. We might slightly change that order, but it's still right there. Written out here is what we need to teach and here's generally how, what order we're going to teach that in. Sometimes that is called a progression chart.
So there's those two words. So scope and sequence and progression chart. Those two things can be used interchangeably.
We'll get in a little bit later into what's a program and what's a approach. But usually if you hear scope and sequence, that means like boxed program. And if you hear progression chart, usually that means more approach. But they can be interchangeable. It depends on kind of who you're, you're following.
[00:08:13] Speaker B: Yeah. And where you were taught, I think, because sometimes I think they still use some of the scope and sequence wording, even approaches.
So our scoping sequence is cumulative and we review every lesson, something that we've done before.
We also do positive corrective feedback and previous taught skills are constantly reinforced because we're building on them so we can use them again and again and help reinforce that. How many times does it say that a student with dyslexia needs to see a word before it becomes automatic?
[00:08:58] Speaker A: Yeah, I don't have that one in front of me, but I mean, they can, they say it's up to like 20 more times than someone without dyslexia.
[00:09:09] Speaker B: I thought it was like a hundred.
[00:09:11] Speaker A: So it can be, right? It can be. It really depends on the kid. But, yeah, that can be a lot more than you think. And in a really kind of more traditional classroom setting, I mean, they're kind of going, okay, three, four times and they got it right. No, no, they don't.
And that corrective feedback piece, that's really, really important.
We're not letting that student make, let's say the same spelling mistake. Right. We're calling that spelling mistake out every time they do it in a positive way. But we are, we're making them correct that every time so that their brain starts to get the correct, the correct formation.
That becomes automatic.
If we let that go for too long, that wrong way really gets ingrained.
[00:10:10] Speaker B: Yes. We don't want that ingrained.
[00:10:11] Speaker A: We don't want that ingrained.
[00:10:14] Speaker B: And diagnostic is another word that we use a lot, which is really where teachers can constantly monitor students progress and pinpoint the misunderstandings and gaps, which is basically what we just said is we don't let them make the mistake and get it ingrained in their head.
[00:10:33] Speaker A: That's right. That's right. I'm keeping track of. Hmm this student always puts ay when it should be AI, and I'm making that note and I'm using that. Right. I am diagnosing that that is, in fact, what the issue is. And then that next part is that adaptive piece.
So I'm adapting, I'm changing what I'm doing. I'm putting in more words that would fit that pattern, so that I'm making that kid practice that pattern so it's adaptive. So that add up that adaptive means, right. That ability to change. So we are flexible and ready to adjust our strategies. Right. So that may mean that, oh, we're seeing this spelling mistake. I might kind of intensify that, right. I might go, okay, we're gonna, we're gonna really double down on this pattern and we're going to do a lot of those words or, you know, change, change what I'm doing altogether. Like, hmm, maybe we're really just not ready for that sound. Maybe it's, they're not picking up that sound. And I have to go back and I have to, hmm, let's see what's, what's going on. I have to change what I'm, what I'm doing as I'm doing it.
[00:12:01] Speaker B: Okay.
Understood.org is a website that has lots of resources, and they say that structured literacy covers the following concepts.
So phonologically.
So they study the sounds of spoken words.
They do the sound symbol, or orthography, which is another big word that we use a lot, right? Yes.
And that's how to map sounds. So you map the phonemes, which is the sound to the letters, which are the graphenes, and that gives you the sound symbol relationship syllables.
[00:12:45] Speaker A: So we've been doing our study on syllables, right? So knowing the types of syllables and how to divide words into syllables, that is part of that structured literacy.
[00:12:59] Speaker B: Morphology is the study of the base words and the affixes, so the prefixes and the suffixes. So a prefix is what goes to the front of the word, and this suffix goes at the end of the word, and it changes the base words meaning in different ways.
[00:13:17] Speaker A: That's right. We also teach some common latin roots and how a prefix and a suffix can change those so that those common ones, especially, they show up in our academic language all the time. So if they have, I mean, even if we teach them ten now, there's thousands of words that are decodable for them and understood for meaning. So that's why we do that. Morphology piece.
Another word is the word syntax.
Syntax is the understanding of grammatical order of words. So like sentence structure, even what is a sentence and what is not subject verb agreement, all of those things fall under that syntax heading.
[00:14:18] Speaker B: Semantics is another word that we use and that's understanding the meaning of the words and the sentences and how they all go together.
[00:14:27] Speaker A: Right. So those little guys that are maybe learning like a new word, but they're not quite using it correctly, that's that semantic issue. They're still learning to finesse. Oh, I heard this fancy new word and I'm trying to use it.
[00:14:48] Speaker B: That doesn't make any sense.
[00:14:50] Speaker A: It doesn't really make sense for that sentence.
That is a semantic issue.
[00:14:56] Speaker B: Or sometimes they use a word that's similar.
[00:15:03] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:15:04] Speaker B: Right?
[00:15:04] Speaker A: Yes. Yes. This could also be a word usage issue.
[00:15:09] Speaker B: Or what about the there there?
Is that part of semantics or is that part of something else?
[00:15:15] Speaker A: So probably more syntax there.
Probably more syntax. I mean, sure, it's both. You are looking at meaning right there, there and there.
Probably more syntactical error. We're not using that grammatically correct.
[00:15:35] Speaker B: Like, you know. Cause it's. They are or it's their bike.
[00:15:40] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:15:40] Speaker B: Or it's over there.
[00:15:42] Speaker A: Yes.
In fact, different meanings. Yes. Yes.
[00:15:46] Speaker B: Very different meanings.
[00:15:47] Speaker A: Yes.
In the words of my students, though, that's real dumb.
[00:15:56] Speaker B: And they're all spelled differently. And they're all spelled differently and yet you need to know which one it is actually important.
[00:16:02] Speaker A: Despite the overwhelming, if you polled my students, they would say it is not important.
Big opinions. Big opinions here.
[00:16:16] Speaker B: So another word that you might come across is what is Orton Gillingham?
Which is actually from the Orton Gillingham Academy website. Orton Gillingham approach is named after doctor Samuel Orton and Anna Gillingham. So they're basically last names of people who made the approach.
[00:16:41] Speaker A: Yes. So kind of a good history lesson here. So Samuel Orton, he was a neuropsychiatrist and pathologist. He was a pioneer in focusing attention on reading failure and related language processing difficulties. He brought together neuroscientific information and principles of teaching. So as early as 1925, he had identified the syndrome of dyslexia as an educational. As an educational problem.
And Anna Gillingham was a gifted educator. She was a psychologist with a really strong mastery of the language. She was encouraged by Doctor Orton.
She compiled and published a lot of materials. So as early as the 1930s. So that kind of provided the foundation for that structured literacy things that we use now.
So it was their approach, that's why it's called Orton Gillingham, their approach that we would now call structured literacy.
[00:18:08] Speaker B: Correct.
[00:18:08] Speaker A: Yeah, that approach too. So when you hear Orton, Gillingham, or often it's shortened to OG.
When you hear Orton, Gillingham or OG, that approach, truly, it's most often associated with a one on one teacher student instructional model.
You can do small group instruction, but that small group, I mean, they say no more than five if you're really adhering, right? If you're really adhering, they say no more than five. And those students have to be pretty close in skill deficits, and it's not.
[00:18:54] Speaker B: Very common to do it in a group.
[00:18:56] Speaker A: It's not.
I mean, it happens. It does happen. There is an approach that is more of a classroom instructional model for reading and spelling instruction. But we're talking about, like, that's the primary instruction. We're not really talking about it as an intervention anymore. So a lot of classrooms now are doing an OG approach for their primary teaching instruction, which is great. I mean, really, when I hear OG, it's like, well, that's kind of gold standard teaching, right? That's what we want teachers to do.
But when we're talking about it as a classroom model, we're no longer talking about it as an intervention.
So that's different.
[00:19:49] Speaker B: And reading, spelling, and writing difficulties have been the dominant focus of this approach, although it has been, like we said, successfully adapted for use with students who also can exhibit difficulty with mathematics because there's also an Orton Gillingham approach to mathematics.
[00:20:09] Speaker A: Yes, they use that same principle. Right. So when we're doing structured literacy, or Nicole and I are both OG trained, we're looking at, this is multi sensory, right. We're using more than one of our senses. We are systematic and sequential.
Our teaching is both diagnostic and prescriptive, which means I'm not only changing what I'm doing, I'm looking ahead and saying, okay, this is what my kid needs. This is how I'm going to do that.
Those same principles can be applied to math instruction. So they're going to use a lot of manipulatives. They're going to focus on the basic math skills first. They're going to understand what a number is. They're going to understand that one to one relationship between a number and an object. They're building on all of those basic things before they're adding the more complex skillset.
[00:21:13] Speaker B: Correct.
So what's a program?
[00:21:16] Speaker A: Ha. Yes.
So program versus approach. Okay. Here at our center, we are approach based, but we do own several programs as well. So programs are, of the ones we're going to talk about today are programs that are based on structured literacy, but they are more scripted you follow the same path for every student. Typically, this is something that usually comes in a box with lots and lots of materials. There isn't a lot of changing the lesson plan. You do still write lesson plans for every individual, but there is not a lot of, if you're adhering to these programs, this is where we got this fidelity word that teachers are listening. They're probably rolling their eyes out a little bit.
This is where you follow the script as it is written and there is not a lot of deviation from that because that is what has been researched by those programs. Some good examples, the Sonde system, very popular in schools. That is a system that is based on OG but is done primarily in small group settings.
Wilson is also one that is very popular in schools. This one was originally designed for high school students. So goes pretty fast.
Very complex words, but can be very effective for older students. Hagerty is another one.
Mainly they are phonics and phonological awareness, the letters program and Barton. Those are some popular. There are many more. Those are probably the most popular ones. The ones I hear being batted around the most.
[00:23:33] Speaker B: Correct.
So the science of reading.
[00:23:39] Speaker A: Yes. So the science of reading, right. Quite the buzzword right? Now, if you are a parent, if you are kind of paying attention at all to what's going on in schools, you're hearing constantly science of reading. Science of reading, often shortened to SoR.
[00:23:58] Speaker B: Correct.
[00:23:58] Speaker A: So if you're hearing science of reading or sor.
[00:24:01] Speaker B: Or soar.
[00:24:01] Speaker A: Yes, soar again. Gotta love those teachers. Just do not miss an opportunity to put an acronym on something, man. They do not.
So the science of reading, that really what they're saying there is that they're talking about the body of research on how we learn to read.
[00:24:29] Speaker B: So that's like all the research.
[00:24:30] Speaker A: Correct, correct. They're talking about, I mean, all the studies, all the meta studies, they really actually are talking about what is going on in the scientific world when it comes to reading. Often that's kind of substituted for either structured literacy or Orton Gillingham.
[00:24:52] Speaker B: But they're not interchangeable.
[00:24:53] Speaker A: They are not.
[00:24:54] Speaker B: That's not completely correct. Yes, those approaches are based on the science of reading, but they are not exactly the science reading because it's not the science piece.
[00:25:05] Speaker A: Yeah, that's right. That's right. So.
Oh, I hope everybody's still with us.
[00:25:13] Speaker B: We kind of went deep into this.
[00:25:16] Speaker A: But I also hope that this was helpful for our listeners because these terms are batted around so often between the.
[00:25:26] Speaker B: School, the different people in the school. If you have a reading interventionist, if you come to the center, I mean, we talk these languages and it's really hard to understand. There's not a lot of words that are the different or more common that you can use. Like as an occupational therapist, we were always told, you know, you have to use regular language because we have all these wonderful terms that nobody understands because that's kind of in our profession. Yeah, but, and we have a lot of acronyms, too.
[00:26:03] Speaker A: And healthcare and education.
[00:26:05] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:26:06] Speaker A: The two of us, they do not miss an opportunity.
[00:26:09] Speaker B: Now. They don't. And so, but when we talk to somebody that we're, that is not an ot, we have to change what we're saying so that they can understand it. But that doesn't seem to happen or have the same ability in some of these terms.
[00:26:26] Speaker A: I think that's right. I think that's right. And I think it's, it's frustrating to me as a practitioner and a mom. I mean, between you and me in the sky, I think there is this kind of defensiveness with educators and researchers. Right. This kind of, like, I don't know, almost this like, proof that we are professional. It's a weird, it's, it's kind of a weird thing. And I think sometimes that's why some of us cling to our highly academic language.
Oh, but I, but I know what I'm talking about because I could use these words.
[00:27:08] Speaker B: Right.
[00:27:08] Speaker A: And it's like, well, we don't really see what we're doing to parents when we don't take the time to explain these things.
And I've had a lot of parents come to me and say, like, I just, I don't understand what this means. And so I feel like I can't help my kid because I don't understand what this means and that is nothing.
That's not us doing our job then. So I hope this was a helpful episode to really break down one of these terms.
And also, if you're a parent. Right. And you're saying sor, structured literacy, Orton, Gillingham, like, if you are using those interchangeably, fine. I'm not mad at you. That's fine.
It's different. It's different among professionals.
I think it is important to understand what these things mean and know that, yes, they are different, but you're doing your best. All right. We believe you. You're doing your best. We get it.
[00:28:13] Speaker B: There's a lot of terms, and I think sometimes, too, especially at school, they start using the terms really fast in a conversation and then move on and you're still trying to figure out, what did they just say? Because that's a new word for me. And how do you spell that? Yeah. Like Sunday.
I mean, is that Sunday, or is it.
[00:28:36] Speaker A: Yeah, you know what I mean? Do they just forget how to say Sunday or what?
[00:28:39] Speaker B: Yeah, we weren't talking about the days of the week. I don't understand why they said that. So, I mean, I think that that's something, too, that we need to slow down a little bit.
[00:28:49] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. For sure. I. Yeah, I definitely have had a lot of conversations with parents over the years that are like, I.
You know, sometimes it's just me going fast. Right. Sometimes I need to be reminded as a professional to slow down and explain things.
[00:29:10] Speaker B: Mm hmm.
So what's new with you at home?
[00:29:15] Speaker A: Life outside of dyslexia?
Let's see what is going on with us right now.
We had a really fun weekend this past weekend. We had. The fire department was having their pancake breakfast, which was really fun. We live close enough that we can walk to the fire station. And it was a really beautiful Saturday morning, so we did. And they had the flight for life helicopter fly in and land. So my kids got to see it land.
They got to see the inside of the helicopter. They got to meet the medic and also the helicopter pilot.
And that was definitely the talk of the weekend for sure.
[00:30:02] Speaker B: Nice.
Yeah, I guess this week, my oldest, they did tie dyeing at school.
[00:30:10] Speaker A: Nice.
[00:30:11] Speaker B: Yes. And what they're doing is they're doing glow in the dark tie dyeing because they're gonna do. They're doing the planets in the solar system right now. And then they're going to have a solar system party, and we're gonna go out at night in the cold and look at the stars. So that sounds like a lot of fun. Yes.
My daughter is very, very into the solar system. So this is very exciting.
[00:30:42] Speaker A: So are they going to include. So are they going to include this. This very cool tidbit of information that is happening right now that I've been kind of obsessed with over the week? My son brought this up. So did you know that the Earth right now, through November 25, has not one, but two moons?
[00:31:00] Speaker B: What?
[00:31:00] Speaker A: Yes, yes, yes. Right now, we have a mini moon that it's an asteroid. So they go around or whatever every once in a while, apparently several times a decade, you guys, our Earth captures an asteroid, and it becomes a moon because it doesn't orbit, and then it gets released, and it goes about its merry way. But right now, we have two moons. We have our moon and a mini moon.
[00:31:31] Speaker B: All right, you gotta look for that.
[00:31:33] Speaker A: There you go.
[00:31:34] Speaker B: There we go.
[00:31:34] Speaker A: Now, that's way outside dyslexia.
All right, so thank you, everybody, for listening and staying with us for our bonus space Con space content.
But if you like our show, please follow us on social media. Please reach out if you have any questions or you would like us to discuss a topic. Topic. If you do like our show, be sure to follow and rate us on your favorite podcast player. That is how we really reach more families and get to help more people. Thank you.
[00:32:12] Speaker B: Thank you.
[00:32:14] Speaker A: Bye.
