Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hi, I'm Maggie.
[00:00:01] Speaker B: And I'm Nicole. Welcome to the DAC Dyslexia and Coffee podcast. We are so happy that you could join us. We are both moms and dyslexia interventionists who want to talk about our students and children, what dyslexia is, how it affects our kids, strategies to help and topics related to other learning disabilities will all be covered in this podcast. Parents are not alone, and we want to give a voice to the concerns and struggles we are all having. This is a safe place to learn more about how to help our children grow and succeed in school, in the world. Grab a cup of coffee and enjoy the conversation.
[00:00:36] Speaker A: Hi, everybody. Welcome to episode eleven of DaC Coffee and dyslexia. Whatever. We'll switch that, change that dyslexia and coffee podcast.
We're here today to talk about how do we teach students, students to advocate for themselves. But first, we like to start with the concept of the week. So as a reminder, we've been doing a little primer on syllables. So as a reminder, a syllable is a word or a part of a word with one vowel sound. We've talked about closed syllables and open syllables already, and today we're going to talk about the magic eternity or vce syllable type. This is a syllable where there is one vowel, then a consonant, and then a silent e. The silent e tells the vowel to say its long sound. So, for example, in the word make that e is jumping over that k, making that a say its long sound.
[00:01:46] Speaker B: Nice.
It can be difficult for students to learn and become automatic with this syllable type because they have to pay attention to the end of the word before they can decode it. So this can also cause a lot of our students to start adding e to everything also, right?
[00:02:05] Speaker A: Yes. Yes. This one is kind of tricky, too, because once we teach this one, many of our students are still in the phase of instruction where we're working on one syllable words, and then we make the jump to working on syllable division and adding two syllables together.
And if we're not really automatic before we make that jump, it can be pretty tough for those students to be able to generalize that they've got to make that long sound, especially in that second syllable.
And goodness gracious, if it occurs first, that's even more difficult. That messes them all up. So something to pay attention to when you're reading to your kids at home.
[00:02:55] Speaker B: So today's topic, how do we teach our students to advocate for themselves?
Well, I mean, this is a skill that needs to be taught just like any other skill. Right. It's no different than learning how to even tie your shoes. It'll take lots of time, and it requires a lot of practice.
[00:03:13] Speaker A: Yes.
So last episode, we talked about what is advocacy and how to be an advocate for our kids. And we went back to three basic things. Right. Number one, we need to teach our kids about their disability.
So we need to make sure that our students understand what dyslexia is and how it impacts their learning. This is why we stress the importance of using the word dyslexia.
Number two is being able to communicate to others how dyslexia affects their learning. Our students need to communicate what they need in their environment for assignments and tests, how to describe what is hard for them to understand. So this requires them to really understand themselves and then practice communicating those needs with others. This can start at home. Number three is our students need to know what resources are even available to them. So they need to know what is in their IEP or their 504 plan, if they have one.
They also need to know who is responsible for their goals. So if it's an IEP, who is their case manager, who is their counselor, who is in charge of making sure that these things are in place, who is their go to resource at school?
They need to also understand what different teachers roles are in their learning. Right. There's a classroom teacher. Often there's a special ed teacher involved with our students.
There could be a speech path involved with our students.
It's important for them to understand the different adult roles in their plan.
[00:05:14] Speaker B: Also. Right. There could be reading interventionists from the school, occupational therapist. Who else could be on there?
[00:05:21] Speaker A: Hi, Mandev. The students who come see us in our office. Right. I'm often asked to be part of that team. So it's. It can be a lot of.
A whole lot of adults in the room, and often that can be overwhelming, especially depending on the age of the student.
Even a high school kid, you know, kind of walks into an Iep and kind of goes, oh, or are confused about, like, what is my math teacher doing here? Well, they're here because they're your regular ed teacher, and they need to know what is going on. And often that is not explained to students. So they do need to know all of that stuff and then how to communicate when something's not working for them and who to even talk to about that. Sometimes it's like, I don't know what's happening and I don't know who to communicate it with. So they just don't they choose not.
[00:06:24] Speaker B: Communication, which does not help anybody on the team know what is going on.
[00:06:30] Speaker A: Exactly. Exactly.
[00:06:33] Speaker B: So when should we start teaching our students this?
[00:06:38] Speaker A: As early as possible.
[00:06:41] Speaker B: So. And how do you teach this?
[00:06:43] Speaker A: So this starts really, really young. This starts with talking to our kids about what is challenging for them and also what their strengths are. That's that level one. Let's teach them about themselves.
This is, again, why we use the word dyslexia or insert any diagnostic term. Here we explain the word advocate and advocacy. It is so widely used in our kids life.
And starting in middle school, this truly starts before middle school. But starting in middle school, we have teachers saying to these kids, you need to advocate for yourself and you need to advocate for yourself. And often they have not one clue what that word advocate even means.
So explaining to them when they are little what that word means, I mean, that is something I already am using in my house, and my kids are four and six. Do I think they know that internally yet? No, but they're going to be steeped in that stew of hearing those words, so help me.
[00:08:02] Speaker B: So one way you can do is create situations where they have to ask for help. And this could look a lot of different ways. Like, one of the examples we were talking about earlier was having something a little too high for them to reach so that they have to come to you and ask for help reaching that item. Like, it could be a toy or it could be their favorite snack.
[00:08:27] Speaker A: Yep. Yep. And you know something too? It's like, as an add on, it's like, that's step one. And then kind of an add on is like, hmm, I wonder if there is a tool around here. Let's look around the room and see if there's a tool we could use to reach this. Oh, there's a stool in that corner. There sure is, huh? Yeah. Do you need help bringing that over or do you want to do it yourself? You know, those kind of opportunities, I mean, look around and they're everywhere. Right, right. But being really purposeful about that.
[00:09:02] Speaker B: Having, modeling, asking for help. So as an adult, asking another adult for help, being able to do that in front of your children, that's something that will definitely teach them that it's okay to ask for help.
[00:09:19] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. I mean, all the research on child development tells us frankly that anything we say to our kids pretty much goes over their head.
Pretty much. They're not, they're not really absorbing the things that we are saying to them, but they are absolutely watching. And if you want to kind of see who your kids are going to become as adults. You sort of have to look in the mirror here. Speaking to myself, asking for help is important and something that we all should be doing.
[00:09:58] Speaker B: Correct.
And stressing the fact that everybody needs help sometimes. I mean, even just saying that explicitly to them. I mean, we all need help. I mean, I was asking Maggie for help earlier with an assessment because the technology didn't like me.
[00:10:19] Speaker A: It didn't like me either. Spoiler alert.
We had to ask the help desk, you know, and also just to kind of back up a little bit when our kids are little, making very clear to the kids who are their trusted adults in their life, you know, when they're tiny, it's a short list, right? It's mom, dad, maybe a grandparent.
Depends on the family dynamic, right? It could be an aunt and uncle, could be something like that. But you want to keep that list pretty small when they're little.
And then when they get to school, that's when we're adding in the neighborhood classroom teacher, maybe the counselor or principal at the school. We're really slowly adding to this kid's network of trusted adults in a really kind of controlled way.
[00:11:23] Speaker B: And making sure you're talking about everybody's role in simple language so that our kids can understand, you know, why they're a trusted adult.
[00:11:33] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:11:39] Speaker B: Let's see. One way you can do that is if they're meeting their teacher for a first time or at a conference working with your child and maybe have one question that they have or one thing they want to know more about either the teacher, the classroom, or what's coming up next for them in class.
[00:11:59] Speaker A: Yeah, that's one thing I'm pretty forceful about with my kids is you have to be able to ask the question and we can practice it.
Both my kids, kind of, given the opportunity, will like not.
Right.
They'll kind of pretend that they're real shy and they can't make eye contact and all the things. But if I really kind of force them into it and force them to practice, they will do it. And that is one thing that is worth the battle.
[00:12:40] Speaker B: And as your child grows, we start to expect more out of them in terms of the self advocacy and there's a gradual release of the responsibilities and a shift in who is responsible for what.
[00:12:52] Speaker A: Yeah, this is going to be really individualized, but kind of on a really basic level. We really need to be working with our kids on preparing them for whatever the next level of education is for them.
[00:13:08] Speaker B: Right.
[00:13:09] Speaker A: In elementary school, we start talking about what is going to be expected of them in middle school. And we're talking about, well, you. Yep, in middle school, these are the things that we're going to, you are going to need to be able to do by yourself.
So we start with, okay, we're going to add one more thing to your plate this week. One more the next week. Right. We go slow and then by the time they are in that middle school, well, now we're looking ahead to high school and there is going to be another developmental leap and jump in expectations.
And if we expect them to just do that only in grade nine, that's. They're going to fall off a cliff.
[00:13:57] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think we do it really well as parents. When we're going into, what, four k and five k, we explain to them what's expected of them, what's going to happen in the classroom. We kind of prepare them, but then as they get older, we maybe expect somebody else's going to prepare them. And it's not always the case. So we need to make sure that they understand that, you know, in elementary school, when you get to middle school, you might have multiple teachers and what does that look like? And then in high school you're going to be changing classrooms and what does that look like? And then in high school we start preparing for college and what does that look like for each different child? Or are you going to like a tech school or are you going to get a job first? But we're always trying to prepare them for the next thing.
[00:14:45] Speaker A: Yeah. You know, and when those high schoolers are getting that job for the first time, it really explaining. Okay, well, the amount, the amount of hours that you work does directly correlate to your paycheck. And sometimes that will be really motivating and the kids will want to, like, work all the time at the expense of other responsibilities. So being very clear that, yeah, with great power comes great responsibility, but there is a really still teaching role involved in those older grades. And that is, it's often missed and it's really kind of unfair to, to our, to our older kids who still are kids in so many ways.
[00:15:36] Speaker B: Correct. And I think knowing about some of the college students that we have come through here and how they're not really prepared for the having to get up on their own and then going to class on their own and scheduling when to do their homework so that it's done on time.
And I don't know if some high schools have been preparing students as well as they used to in the past because they can take a test multiple times, they can do extra credit to get their grades up, but in college, that is not the case at all.
You get one chance for the test and you might have extra credit if the professor really wants to give it out, a lot of them don't anymore. So I think that that can be a big shock to our college students.
[00:16:29] Speaker A: Very much. Very much. I mean, that is.
And the evidence shows, right. You know, there is definitely a safety net while our kids still live with us while they're still in high school.
And if we're not really gradual about allowing that independence and allowing those self advocacy skills to take root, they are not prepared for all of that, and they really can't do it. And they don't know where to start to ask for help either.
So it kind of becomes this panic situation often. And when they realize there's a problem, it's way too late.
[00:17:15] Speaker B: That's when they're usually failing a class or all their classes.
They've stopped going to class or they've just kind of given up. So, I mean, if they would have been maybe prepared a little bit better, maybe they would have been able to know who to ask or know where to go for help.
And, you know, because once you get to college, you're considered an adulthood and go on. But we all know that, as we said in the previous episode, executive functioning isn't even there until 25 or 30, all developed in your brain. So expecting people just to go in their late teens, early twenties and be independent without any explicit teaching is not really fair to them.
[00:18:07] Speaker A: Yeah. You know, and this is nothing black and white, right? This is not. Either you have taught your kid to be a self advocate and good for you or not at all.
This is a skill. And we do need to tailor our expectations to the individual, which means we also might have to alter our timeline a bit. A student with ADHD or dyslexia, they really may not be ready, truly to take on that full responsibility at the same time as their neurotypical peers.
We might really need to be, okay, maybe pick one thing that we are still doing for our kids when they're 18, 1920, because we are busy teaching them all the other kinds of skills. Right? So it's not that. It's like, oh, I'm gonna hang on to this responsibility forever and never can never let my kid fly the nest. But not all kids are ready at the same time. And I think the important part is we're being explicit about, okay, I'm still going to help you with organizing your time and making sure that your assignments are done, because look at all the other things I expect you to be able to do.
[00:19:34] Speaker B: Right.
[00:19:35] Speaker A: So it's not just hanging on to that and not doing the work of explaining that to the individual.
[00:19:44] Speaker B: Correct. And it really depends on, everybody learns at different rates and different times. And so just being able to read your student or child is important, too.
[00:19:58] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:19:58] Speaker B: If they're looking overwhelmed, maybe we need to slow down a little bit. Or if they're looking really bored, maybe they got something and you can move on.
[00:20:08] Speaker A: Very much. Very much so. We thought this would be a good plan. We're going to kind of break down a real world example. How do we coach our kids into becoming a good self advocate? And, you know, the ultimate goal of being independent?
So we're going to do kind of a little role playing, nicole and I.
So let's say we have a student, let's call them a middle school student.
Let's say this middle school student is in an activity.
Let's say they need their soccer jersey, their whole soccer get up. Let's say they need that every single Wednesday right after school, because they go straight from school to soccer, and there's a game, and they can't be wearing anything but their soccer uniform. Okay. So something important. They need this thing. They can't forget it or they can't play.
Okay, so let's take that individual student. Let's call him James.
All right, so, Nicole, is James mom, all right. And we're trying to figure out, okay, how do we help James? All right, so what's going on with James right now, Nicole?
[00:21:52] Speaker B: Well, James tends to forget his uniform every Wednesday.
We've tried putting it by the door. That doesn't seem to work.
We've tried a sticky note in his bedroom that that doesn't seem to work.
We've tried to remind him as we're leaving, and sometimes that works, and sometimes it doesn't.
[00:22:16] Speaker A: Okay. Okay. So pretty.
Pretty typical, then, of this kind of, this age group. So what does happen then? So when james does forget his uniform, what happens to James?
[00:22:32] Speaker B: Well, it kind of depends where.
I mean, we have to let our students fail sometimes and notice the consequences. So if he shows up to his soccer game without his uniform and has to sit on the side, I think that gives him a real example of the consequence of forgetting his uniformity.
[00:22:59] Speaker A: Sure. Does that. Has that ever happened to him?
[00:23:01] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:23:01] Speaker A: Okay. All right, so sounds like you've tried quite a few home strategies for him, and they haven't really worked.
So I'm kind of taking a guess. Right. So he doesn't play and he has to sit on the sideline.
Is that happening? Kind of every time for him right now is kind of an all or nothing either. Like, he remembers it and he gets to play or he doesn't remember it and he gets kind of rescued out of it. What would you say the breakdown is right now?
[00:23:39] Speaker B: Yeah. We do rescue him quite a bit. Okay.
Because, I mean, I mean, his kids are mean.
[00:23:51] Speaker A: Yeah. We want them for sure.
[00:23:53] Speaker B: We want him to be accepted. And if he never plays his games, he's never gonna be accepted.
[00:23:59] Speaker A: Well, and probably.
[00:24:01] Speaker B: Probably.
[00:24:02] Speaker A: James really likes soccer. Right. There's a reason that he's in this sport, and it probably means a lot to him.
There's a lot of other greater lessons, too.
[00:24:12] Speaker B: Right.
[00:24:12] Speaker A: He's part of a team, so if he doesn't bring his stuff, he's letting the team down, letting the coach down. That can be a whole big burden for him. So I'm wondering, how do we get from. Okay, James is really struggling with this whole uniform thing right now. Right. How do we get him to one step closer to independence so when he's noticed that he forgot his uniform, I'm guessing that's probably happening at school. Right? School. Right. Like, right when he needs that uniform.
[00:24:53] Speaker B: Correct.
[00:24:53] Speaker A: But when are you noticing that he's forgotten that uniform?
[00:24:57] Speaker B: When it's too late and we're at the game.
[00:25:03] Speaker A: Yeah. That is a tough. That's a tough nut to crack. I think for right now, if we're trying to baby step this situation.
[00:25:13] Speaker B: For.
[00:25:14] Speaker A: Teaching purposes, I think we're going to make temporarily that uniform mom's job in the way that we're going to anticipate every Wednesday. He's forgetting that uniform. We're not expecting right now that he's remembering, we are hoping he is. We're going to continue to try to, you know, Tuesday night, right? Tuesday night, that uniform goes in that backpack. Maybe there is a check with mom and maybe it is a directly. Maybe that feels a little babyish right now. Right? It might. It might feel a little babyish to James right now that it's a physical.
I must see it. It must be in your backpack every Tuesday. And I'm going to remember to check right now.
That might be one of the ways that. That sounds counterintuitive, right. That we're actually putting it back on us for a minute.
But that might be what he needs right now to be able to have that success with boy, he's got that uniform, let's say three and four weeks in a row, he's got that uniform, and it's in his backpack, and he is ready to play soccer every Wednesday.
Now, maybe that's that time to go. Okay.
I'm not going to do that physical check in with you, but I still expect you to tell me it's in there.
Right. So now I'm taking away that I haven't put my eyeballs on it, but he still has to verbally say, yep, I've got my soccer uniform. It's in my backpack, it's ready to go.
And then. Right. And then we give him even more responsibility.
If this is the case of a kid who forgets, right, and we're chronically rescuing him, we have to start with where we are and look at, okay, where do we need to be? And then we have to baby step it all the way back. So we do have to meet them where they are, but we can push them one notch up the rung slowly over time. And eventually the expectation is he's got his uniform on his own and he. Maybe there's a teacher at school that could give him a reminder midday where it's still possible you could get him his uniform. Right. But he has to remember to check that often. Could be.
I mean, that could really be anybody, right.
You know, and obviously we're talking about a soccer uniform. Right. But kind of insert lunch. Insert band instrument.
Insert. Right. Something critical our kidney needs that they keep forgetting. You know, maybe that is our job for a little while in service to eventually, yes. That is your job, and we will expect you to be fully independent with that right now.
Or maybe it's not the soccer uniform right now. Maybe we pick a skill. That boy. You know what? James Fair gets a soccer uniform every dang Wednesday, but every other day he comes home from school and he makes his own sandwich as a snack.
Rock and roll. Right? Like, maybe that is one thing that it depends on the kid and it depends on the parent. But maybe we take a look at the whole and we say, hmm, that's not going well. But these three things are going well.
So, squishy, how is that sounding to James? Do you think if we kind of step all the way back, I mean.
[00:29:08] Speaker B: I think he would understand why. And I think that it would help get into the routine, and I think routines really help with some of that memory.
[00:29:20] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. For sure.
Awesome.
[00:29:25] Speaker B: So what's going on in your house these days?
[00:29:28] Speaker A: Oh, time for outside dyslexia.
Let's see what is going on with us these days. It is in real time. As we record this, it is mid October and the weather is starting to become very chilly in our house. And so we are fighting clothing battles every morning with children refusing to wear warm clothes.
Long sleeves.
I do appreciate shout out my son's teacher. She's doing a fabulous job. I have been fighting with my son about, okay, we have to make sure we're wearing warm enough clothes to be outside for recess. And she must have just said, it's a school rule. I'm not sure if it is or isn't, but she must have just stated, made an arbitrary, like, line in the sand that said, you have to the end of it, which he wasn't buying from me for 1 second. But as soon as she said it, guess what he's been wearing sweatshirt and or jacket.
[00:30:43] Speaker B: Nice.
[00:30:43] Speaker A: All week.
[00:30:45] Speaker B: I need to get my kids teachers.
[00:30:48] Speaker A: Yeah. Sometimes it's like, oh, that other person said. So. So that's.
That's what's going on with us.
[00:30:57] Speaker B: Yeah. Right now we're working on with our daughter. She's been, she's very kind and some of the older girls have been starting to take advantage of that school. So we're telling her, you know, we're trying to explain to her she can still be very kind and stay. No. And not do everything for everybody else.
[00:31:19] Speaker A: Yeah. It's the difference between assertive.
[00:31:22] Speaker B: Right.
[00:31:23] Speaker A: And. Ugh.
[00:31:24] Speaker B: Yeah. So that's a hard thing for her.
And so just, you know, it's an ongoing conversation that we're going to be having, but it's a.
It just, you know, unfortunately, kids are kids, and if somebody is willing to do something like clean up after you, why wouldn't.
[00:31:48] Speaker A: Right. I mean, there's no incentive for that other kid to change. Right. They're getting what they want, so there's no incentive for them to change and not do that.
[00:31:56] Speaker B: Right. So that's kind of been our advocacy thing with her this month.
[00:32:04] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. Important, important skill.
[00:32:07] Speaker B: Yep. Yeah.
[00:32:10] Speaker A: Well, this job is hard.
[00:32:12] Speaker B: It is.
[00:32:13] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:32:13] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:32:16] Speaker A: All right. Well, thank you for listening to DaC, Dyslexia and coffee podcast. Please follow us on social media and reach out if you have any questions or would like us to discuss a topic. If you like our show, please be sure to follow us and give our show a rating on your favorite podcast player. This is what helps push us out there to other listeners so we can help more families. Thanks for listening.
[00:32:44] Speaker B: Thank you.
