Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hi, I'm Maggie.
[00:00:01] Speaker B: And I'm Nicole. Welcome to the DAC Dyslexia and Coffee Podcast. We're so happy you could join us. We're both moms and dyslexia interventionists who want to talk about our students and children. What dyslexia is, how it affects our kids, strategies to help and topics related to other learning disabilities will all be covered in this podcast. Parents are not alone, and we want to give voice to the concerns and struggles we are all having. This is a safe place to learn more about how to help our children grow and succeed in school, in the world. Grab a cup of coffee and enjoy the conversation.
[00:00:36] Speaker A: Hi, everybody. Welcome to episode 36 of Dyslexia and Coffee Podcast. We like to start our episodes with the concept of the week. So the concept of the week is our opportunity as practitioners to kind of pull back the curtain a little bit and let you into an intervention session. So we like to teach about things that we would be teaching to our students. Today's concept of the week is automaticity.
So automaticity is the ability to perform actions with little to no conscious effort, often after extensive practice. So in other words, this is the process of becoming proficient in a skill. We most often talk about automaticity when we're talking about word recognition and spelling, but it absolutely applies to many other skills in structured literacy.
So, you know, reading fluency, reading comprehension, all of those things we actually want to be automatic is the level at which when we consider something automatic, that's when we know we can, we can move on.
So, you know, accurate's great, but automatic is better. That's what we want. That's what we're shooting for here.
[00:02:02] Speaker B: Yes.
So today's episode is about error correction.
[00:02:09] Speaker A: So what is error correction? Right away, let's go shock about it. What is error correction?
[00:02:18] Speaker B: Basically what it sounds like.
[00:02:20] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:02:21] Speaker B: When a student makes an error either with reading or spelling, we automatically stop what we're doing and we show them what happened and why it didn't. It wasn't correct.
[00:02:32] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly right. One of the absolute tenets of Orton Gillingham, or structured literacy instruction is that it is diagnostic and prescriptive. We have talked about the idea of diagnostic and prescriptive before, but let's go ahead and define it again because we really like to belabor the points here.
[00:03:03] Speaker B: So instruction is diagnostic. It means we monitor the students verbal, non verbal written responses to identify and analyze errors and progress.
A skilled practitioner is taking a lot of notes during their OG lessons.
[00:03:21] Speaker A: Yeah, that's right. You're keeping track of every error that kid made.
[00:03:28] Speaker B: Correct.
[00:03:29] Speaker A: And then instruction is also prescriptive.
So all lesson contains review of pro previously learned material, and it addresses student errors from previous lessons. So a skilled practitioner includes practice items that a student made an error on in previous lessons, but it also includes items that are similar to that error. So if a student made an error on a certain vowel team, like let's say oa, okay, they missed the word boat. I would include the word boat the next time. I would also include a word like coat or goat or float.
I'm gonna make sure we're giving them lots and lots of practice with the. The piece of that word that was an error.
[00:04:22] Speaker B: And we don't move on to another new concept until the student reaches mastery, which in OG is 90% with each concept.
[00:04:32] Speaker A: That's right. And not just that it's correct, it's automatic. So we're 90%, no errors and. Well, 90% errors. Right.
10% errors, 90% not errors. They're 90% accurate. But also automatic.
[00:04:52] Speaker B: Right. So like, they wouldn't be saying a word and still going c at yes, cat. And then blending it that way they would see it and be like, cat.
[00:05:03] Speaker A: Yes. That is what we would consider automatic and have mastered.
This is both for reading and for spelling.
[00:05:13] Speaker B: Correct.
[00:05:14] Speaker A: So if they don't have it for spelling yet, we're not moving on.
[00:05:18] Speaker B: Correct.
And there's a certain degree of knowing your students here too. Right. For example, if you have a really young student and you're teaching bd, you have to understand that BD reversals are developmentally normal at that age, actually until the end of first grade. So these will, you know, persist well past the end of first grade for struggling readers. But a skilled practitioner will make the determination when to move on. But they continue to incorporate this practice with those students on this concept.
[00:05:57] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. So there is, there is a lot of teacher knowledge. That's why training is so important.
That's why it takes a long time to get certified in Orton Gillingham or any kind of structured literacy.
Many of us go through that certification more than once because we're just love it so much. Yeah, we do. We do love it so much. But it is a lot of training. But that's one of the reasons that it is such intensive training. It's so dependent on teacher knowledge. You really have to understand that. Okay, yeah, it's not at that 90%, but this particular skill, it's going to take a minute and we have to, we have to weave room for that A bit with our kids.
[00:06:50] Speaker B: Right. Because if it's developmentally not there yet, we can't expect that child to have it.
[00:06:58] Speaker A: That's right. Now, do we still correct it? Yes, absolutely. Every time correct. Yeah, absolutely every time. We are still correcting it, we are still addressing it, but we are not expecting mastery when it's not developmentally appropriate.
[00:07:18] Speaker B: And there's a lot of research on error correction.
So there's some scientific studies of reading.
An example is learning to read words Theory, Findings and Issues, which is an article. And this study discussed how explicit corrective feedback helps dyslexic readers develop accurate word recognition and supporting structured literacy approaches. Like Orton Gillingham.
[00:07:50] Speaker A: Yes.
There's quite a lot of this research.
It is the importance fundamentally of not really letting an error go.
[00:08:04] Speaker B: Right.
[00:08:05] Speaker A: Making sure that we are addressing that error, even if it doesn't affect the meaning of a passage correct.
[00:08:15] Speaker B: Yeah. It really highlights a lot of this research that, you know, students with dyslexia really benefit from that immediate corrective feedback because it really helps reinforce that accuracy and it builds those neural pathways for reading. So that's really important for our students.
[00:08:37] Speaker A: Yeah. You know, some additional research coming out of the special education world. Right. Underscores the importance of correcting errors systematically to prevent the reinforcement of incorrect phonological associations.
So if you are not addressing an error really the same way, every time a kid is making an error, you are really giving them more opportunities at that incorrect production. If it is a reading error or an incorrect encoding, if it's a spelling error, that can be really quite difficult and they can persist even in. Even in speech.
We have a lot of kids who chronically mispronounce a couple of words.
And in my way back machine.
My undergraduate. My undergraduate is in communication sciences and disorders. And one of the things that we would work with parents in clinic, like, yes, I think your child is adorable. And that really, really cute way that they're saying that word is. It is in fact adorable. I will not hold you anything against that. But if we don't correct it, the child will continue to say this word wrong. And we actually do need to address this sound because it is going to become not adorable when they're older and they still are struggling to say these words correctly.
[00:10:15] Speaker B: Yeah.
Also, prescriptive teaching ensures that errors from the previous lessons are addressed like we said before in the next lesson and using a specific diagnostic element of the error. And sometimes it's. Obviously, it's not always the exact same word, but it's the same rule or the same sound, depending on what that error was in.
[00:10:40] Speaker A: Yes, yes.
[00:10:43] Speaker B: And we also correct it right away in this same lesson. Right there.
You know, you look at the error, you find the element that's being part of that error, and then you definitely follow up with more instruction. You reinforce and practice the error in the correct way and then have them keep practicing it over and over again and in a multi sensory way.
[00:11:12] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. Right.
That is that, that prescription piece.
And then there's really kind of a hierarchy in the way that we address errors.
Ideally, we want our students to self correct. Right, Correct. That's like the gold standard. I mean, if our student is not automatic and they are not all the way there yet. Right. The ultimate goal of this kind of instruction is, is automaticity. But if we can't get there, we want self correction.
So what scaffolds do we have to put in place to get the student to a place where they have the tools to self correct?
[00:12:04] Speaker B: Right.
[00:12:05] Speaker A: So one of the steps for error correction, just like everything else in structured literacy, there is a hierarchy here, and there is a really kind of specific set of do's and don'ts.
We want to start with giving the student a minute and to see if they're going to correct it on their own.
[00:12:31] Speaker B: Correct.
[00:12:32] Speaker A: Often our students will kind of take a little pause and maybe they're not immediate with the self correction, but you can see, see they're working it out.
If they don't come up with a self correction on their own, then I would direct them to segment out the word that they're trying to work on. If this is a reading exercise.
[00:13:01] Speaker B: Correct. Sometimes we also give a cue. Right. Like we give them maybe the word that goes along with the sound. And then they're like, oh, oops, now I remember what I'm supposed to do here.
[00:13:15] Speaker A: Always want to start with something like a non verbal cue and then move to a verbal cue.
[00:13:21] Speaker B: Correct.
[00:13:22] Speaker A: If we can get it with a little quick hand signal, that's great.
If they need that oral supported cue, okay, that's great.
If they need a little bit more than that, if they are not able to segment that word and blend it back on their own, then I'll come alongside and we'll tap it and blend it together.
You know, there's several different ways to do that. Like you could have them kind of track and sweep the word.
That would be something more like continuous blending, which is what we do want our students to get to, versus that very staccato version of tapping it out. We do Want them to get more of that continuous blending because that it promotes fluency, you know, having just them repeat the word or trying to trace out the word that they're working on if it's for reading.
Those are all really profoundly research based and appropriate kinds of ways to correct errors.
Built into the way we teach students here is kind of time for that error correction. For example, when we're talking about spelling or with the way we do spelling, we use a system called SOS So it's simultaneous oral spelling. And so the student is doing things like they're hearing the word, they're saying the word, they're segmenting out the word and then they're saying the letter sounds or the letter names out loud as they write. And so where you're able to tell as a practitioner what is the step in that cycle that's tripping that student up.
So we're, we really have a very good insight into, okay, what part of this is my student really not getting? And I'm right there right away with being able to correct that error.
[00:15:38] Speaker B: Yes.
And there's many multi sensory ways to correct errors.
Tracing something, sometimes tracing it in the air, sometimes in sand, and then spelling it out as you go, saying it, spelling it, tapping it on your arm, rolling it together.
There's, I mean there's many different ways.
[00:16:03] Speaker A: There's a lot of ways, you know, keep it multi sensory and keep it as much the students responsibility as possible.
[00:16:17] Speaker B: Right.
[00:16:19] Speaker A: We ultimately want them to be able to see their own errors. It's one of the reasons that primarily most practitioners of Orden Gillingham use pens with their students.
We want them to actually see, see their errors.
[00:16:34] Speaker B: They can't erase it.
[00:16:35] Speaker A: They can't erase it.
[00:16:36] Speaker B: Although there are erasable pens now, there.
[00:16:39] Speaker A: Are, you know, usually they don't work that great.
It's one of the reasons we encourage something more like a pen to work with versus a pencil.
Providing a proofreading strategy like cops or chops. Those are systematic ways. It's like an anagram. So C would stand for capitalization, O for order, P for punctuation, S for spelling. So after they have written a whole sentence or perhaps even a paragraph, you.
[00:17:21] Speaker B: Have them proofread first before you proofread. Yeah, because we want them to identify any errors are in that they see.
[00:17:28] Speaker A: First, you know, and often a student can identify, okay, this word is an error. Maybe they can't correct it on their own, but they can identify, I know I made an error here, I need help figuring out how to correct it.
Which you know, that's proof that their orthographic mapping is coming along because they can see that it is an error. They just don't have the correct tools there to make it right yet.
[00:18:05] Speaker B: So here's a strategy for. Let's say the student was given grass and they didn't put the R in and they sounded out gas, G ass instead of grass.
Then the instructor would have them say it again, repeat it, do either the tapping. There's manipulatives, being able to get all the sounds and then they would re say it and re spell it.
[00:18:43] Speaker A: Yep.
Yeah. And then they're going to recognize, oh, I missed a sound in a blend.
Yeah, that the feedback is immediate.
And then when a student kind of pulls down that incorrect sound in a word, we're saying it again, they're hearing it again. There's that multi sensory piece.
They can use a manipulative if they need one.
That's another kind of scaffold that we can use when it's necessary.
We ultimately want to move away from the student needing that.
[00:19:31] Speaker B: Correct.
[00:19:32] Speaker A: But sometimes at the beginning and sometimes even in a later stage, they are a good tool to have on hand that if it's a more complex word. One of the reasons we spend so much time on things like blends and short vowels is because later, when we're connecting several syllables in a word, chronically tricky is something like a CT blend. That sound gets so lost when now our word is connected.
Right. They can get connect, but like connect hid that, that C, that kind of gets lost in there. And our students have a lot of trouble processing that that's actually still part of that word. And a manipulative can be a really good way to bring that back for them.
It could be a really, really good way to bring that back. You know, and then we, we fade it back out. But you know, I am certainly not afraid to bring back. In scaffolds that have helped a student in the past.
[00:20:58] Speaker B: We explicitly teach spelling generation generalizations and rules. And we use a lot of visual reinforcements for that.
You know, we have lots of posters on the walls.
We have lots of things that are hand out that you can see practice handouts where, you know, you're dropping the E, the Y to the I rule. All those different things need to be practiced quite, quite a few times for them to have it automatic.
[00:21:34] Speaker A: Yeah. You know, and not just at the word level either. Like breaking in some phrases right when you're practicing those skills. Because often it's that dictated sentence at the usually end of Our lessons that really. Okay, there it is. Where now that student has to apply that and we can bring back those visuals. I have a lot of students who sometimes when they're working, they kind of, they will close their eyes and they'll almost like touch their temple. And I can tell that they're trying to visualize one of my posters, you know, and they'll even say, oh, trying to, trying to picture the poster in my head. And that's exactly it, right? Like, yes, that's exactly what I want you to do. That's why that consistency with error correction is so darn important. Because if you're using that same or similar tool every single time that student has the ability to pull it up in their, in their brain, then.
[00:22:47] Speaker B: Yeah.
And a lot of times too, after we do a new rule, especially for spelling or writing, we have them teach it back.
[00:23:01] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:23:02] Speaker B: Because that really reinforces that rule and it helps them be able to explain it in their own words, which can help them process everything too.
[00:23:13] Speaker A: Yeah. You know, and when your student is ready for this, like, let. I get a lot of questions actually from practitioners about what do you do with a kid who's like 75% accurate. Right. We are not at the 90 yet, but we are more than 50 and we've been on something for a while.
That is when we can use something like a non example to help that student because they do have a decent working schema for the idea.
These work pretty well with something like a spelling generalization, like a drop the E kind of rule where you're going to give the students some correct examples and some incorrect examples and you're asking them to identify which is correct, which is the correct spelling of this word.
You know, that has to be done really carefully. I, I don't advocate for too many non examples because then in a student who is not 75% accurate or better, I would not advocate for something like that because now that student doesn't have a good working schema and you're really just confusing them more.
But someone who does have a good working understanding of this rule, being able to correct somebody else's work is a very good bridge to self correction. Yeah, I mean, we are working towards the most independent students possible.
Kind of related to error correction. I was reading an article this week that really, I was heated afterwards.
I won't name names, but education week, you should know better.
I was set. It was a, it was an op ed that it was talking about balanced literacy. Right. So kind of the, the Lucy Culkins of the. Of the world. And it. The argument in the article was that she did a better job at creating. In creating independent readers and writers than structured literacy does.
And I, Yeah, Nicole's face was about. About like mine.
I was quite heated after reading this article. And I. I try to read these things with a lens of like, okay, could some of this be right? Criticism. There are some criticisms of structured literacy that I have talked about before, but really that bugs me a lot because our whole point of why we are so structured is so that the student can take these rules and run with them. Eventually.
Why we teach it so explicitly is so that the student really, really knows it.
So I feel the exact opposite. That, you know, in the wild west of balanced literacy, these kids, yeah, sure, fine, they're reading off in these corners, but you have no idea what is going on in their orthographic mapping or their phonological processing or any of that.
So that really bugged me. That really, really bugged me. And it was, you know, advocating again, for an approach to error correction that only addresses errors if it affects meaning in either reading or writing.
[00:27:01] Speaker B: Oh, right.
[00:27:03] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:27:04] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:27:05] Speaker A: I just. The fact that that is still even out there was out there to begin with and is out there now really.
Was it. I wasn't happy.
Was it wasn't a warm, fuzzy article.
[00:27:24] Speaker B: Doesn't sound like it.
And really reinforcing everything that we teach is what we do in every part of the lesson. We put it into the visual duo, we put it into the spelling, we put it into the. If we're writing a sentence, we'll. And whatever new rule we just taught them to have them practice it over and over in different ways.
[00:27:50] Speaker A: Yeah. You know, and one of the things I spend some time with parents on, especially when they ask, is, okay, how do we correct an error? When they're trucking along, they're reading something, you know, and it's okay, you know, step one, you take a little pause, see if they're, you know, you might just point to it. Right. Sometimes a student's gonna blow past something and not know that it's an error. True, that happens often, but most of the time when they're a few lessons in, they have gotten the idea that we don't just blow past errors, and they are starting to hear their own errors much better. So if they don't stop, then I stop them.
I try first a nonverbal cue and then add a verbal cue if necessary. Then we'll bring in something like tapping or a manipulative or something Else.
[00:28:49] Speaker B: If they know. Syllable, division. I usually.
[00:28:51] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:28:51] Speaker B: If it's a longer word, we'll.
[00:28:53] Speaker A: We'll divide that.
[00:28:54] Speaker B: Divide it up.
[00:28:56] Speaker A: You know, there's always.
I almost never just give the student award if it is fair game for them.
[00:29:08] Speaker B: Right. Like, we've already taught that concept. Yes, that's fair.
[00:29:11] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:29:12] Speaker B: If. If we've never taught it before, and it's a very strange rule because we know that some things are not really concrete in English, then. Yeah, then I would give them the word.
[00:29:23] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. But that is. It's the last resort. We want our students as independent as possible.
That's what I've always been about. And that's probably why that article really got way under my skin.
Like. Excuse me. No, thank you.
[00:29:44] Speaker B: All right, Maggie, what is happening beyond dyslexia?
[00:29:48] Speaker A: Good question. Lots of things. We wanted to take the time, everybody, to let you all know that we do have a support group here at Dyslexia Achievement Center. Our support group meets online the second Tuesday of every month at 7pm Central Time. The link is right on our Facebook page. So if you are ever.
Man, I haven't caught up with Meg and Nicole in a while, and I really want to talk to them, you know, or other parents, too.
That's a great way to connect with us and to get to know other people who are really in the same boat. So we'd love for anybody to join us on the second Tuesday of every month, 7:00pm Central Time.
[00:30:33] Speaker B: Yeah. And it's open to anybody. So.
[00:30:36] Speaker A: Yeah, you don't have to be a parent of a student at dac. You can be anywhere.
[00:30:47] Speaker B: For me, it's just. It's so nice outside in Wisconsin right now, and it's really best time of year. I love spring, except for the road construction, especially right here.
[00:31:00] Speaker A: I'm not sure who makes you guys all orange barrels.
[00:31:07] Speaker B: What makes it really unique is I don't know who develops the detours, but they do not make sense. They make you go 45 minutes away from the place that you're trying to go and then back, and that doesn't even make sense to me. It does not.
[00:31:22] Speaker A: It's very bad.
[00:31:23] Speaker B: But it makes me think of our students. Right. Because thinking about being able to read those signs, to follow those directions, not always easy. And that's why we feel that this is a life skill versus not just an academic skill. When we teach somebody to read.
[00:31:41] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely.
Thank you, everybody, for listening. Please follow us on social media and reach out if you have any questions or would like us to discuss a topic. If you do like our our show, please be sure to rate and follow us on your favorite podcast players. This is how we reach more listeners and we get to help more families. Thank you everybody.
[00:32:02] Speaker B: Thank you.
