Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: Hi, I'm Maggie.
[00:00:01] Speaker B: And I'm Nicole. Welcome to the DAC Dyslexia and Coffee Podcast. We're so happy you could join us. We're both moms and dyslexia interventionists who want to talk about our students and children.
What dyslexia is, how it affects our kids, strategies to help and topics related to other learning disabilities will also be covered in this podcast. Parents are not alone, and we want to give voice to the concerns and struggles we are all having. This is a safe place to learn more about how to help our children grow and succeed in school, in the world. Grab a cup of coffee and enjoy the conversation.
[00:00:34] Speaker A: Hi, everybody. We're going to start our episode, as we always do, with the concept of the week. So the concept of the week is our opportunity as practitioners to kind of peel back the curtain a little bit and talk about topics that we would either teach about in an intervention session or. Or that are really critical to our thinking and actions as a practitioner. So a little insider baseball. It is baseball season, officially.
[00:01:05] Speaker B: Yay.
[00:01:06] Speaker A: Hey.
This concept of the week this week is validity. So validity is the degree to which a test measures what it says it measures.
This is different than reliability, which measures consistency. So we talked about reliability last week.
We want our tests to be both reliable and valid. If we're interested in purchasing a test to have here, we need to make sure that it's got both reliability and validity. They are required to publish that data in. In their manuals.
For example, right. If you have a working clock in your kitchen, but it's set to the wrong time, like, let's say we just forget about spring ahead or fall behind, you know, asking for a friend.
That clock will be reliable because it will be consistent. It will tell you the same time every day, but it's not valid because it's not an accurate measure. So we can think about reliability as it relates to consistent, and we can think of validity as it relates to accurate.
[00:02:35] Speaker B: So today, episode 34 is our frequent asked questions after we do assessments. Since the last two episodes are all about how we do assessments at dac, we thought we should kind of answer some of the questions we get from parents all the time.
[00:02:53] Speaker A: Yeah, often when we do these assessments, we will actually sit down and talk either in the office over the phone or over Zoom or Google Meet. We will actually sit down with parents and go through the assessment report, and we tend to get asked pretty much the same questions every time. So we thought it would be a worthwhile episode.
And we're Going to answer a lot of those frequently asked questions today.
[00:03:27] Speaker B: So the first one is, what does this data mean?
[00:03:30] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:03:31] Speaker B: Right.
[00:03:32] Speaker A: If you're a parent who is outside of this world, these reports are going to be probably pretty overwhelming, and they are going to require an actual person's interpretation. Right. Like, these are.
These are dense reports. They have a lot of jargon. So even though we do the best we can to talk about what the data means in a narrative form, often a parent is really looking for us to walk through.
What do you mean when you say the phonemic awareness skill is in the below average range? What does that actually mean? And we would walk them through exactly what that means.
So, yeah.
[00:04:28] Speaker B: And then another question we get is, what is the difference between subtest scores and composite scores?
[00:04:33] Speaker A: Yes.
So on most of the tests that we give, we will have kind of two or three charts.
The first chart typically is going to be all of the subtests. So the subtest would be the actual test that we gave. So, for example, something like the Test of Phonological Processing, the ctop, which we give very often, it has nine different sub tests, and we would list every single one of those. But then it has three composite scores. So a composite score is taking the average of, let's say, three or four subtests that are all measuring a similar skill.
So in our example, right on the ctop, we have three different measures. Elision Blending Words, and Phoneme Isolation, that all measure phonological awareness. So we would list all three individual. And then usually it's about the average that makes up the composite score.
[00:05:49] Speaker B: Correct.
[00:05:57] Speaker A: Question I get asked a lot is, why does this report say that it's consistent with dyslexia? But I'm looking at some very high scores, either in subtest or a composite score. So why are we saying this is a profile consistent with dyslexia when. Hold on. Some of these scores are really, really high. What's going on here?
[00:06:24] Speaker B: And that's actually pretty typical for a student with dyslexia, that they look kind of like a teeter totter, almost up and down. Because they have lots of different areas in these subtests, and not all of them will be below average. They will sometimes be very high average, especially in sometimes the vocabulary or some of the listening comprehension, some of the following directions, depending on their composites. Overall composite. Right.
And not every area of reading might be impacted. So they might have really good phonological memory, but very poor phonological awareness.
So there's different aspects of reading, and that's why we do so many different tests, because we're looking to see what's being impacted and where. And it can be very different between the subtests.
[00:07:30] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. Sometimes what we're looking for is actually a discrepancy between two different measures. So it isn't necessarily like we're looking at a dyslexic learner's profile, has everything in the low or below average range. Sometimes we're looking at a very big discrepancy between two different kinds of scores. And that is consistent with the definition of dyslexia given in the DSM and the International Dyslexia Association's definition of dyslexia.
So we're not always looking at it from just basically like a cutoff.
We're looking at a whole profile.
[00:08:11] Speaker B: And I think, too, the other thing is, our kids are really smart, and so sometimes they might be even gifted when they come see us. So those subtests might be way high. Like, they might have a photogenic memory. Well, their phonological memory is going to be really high compared to something else, maybe. So that could also be a factor in some of these scores.
And think about. We're just looking at different aspects of reading. We're not looking at every academic skill in these tests either.
[00:08:53] Speaker A: Nor are we typically looking at something like iq. Correct. Because there really is no correlation between IQ and dyslexia. So a student may come to us with a very, very high iq. We get that a lot, actually, where some of these composites and even subtep scores might be high based on actually just their intellectual ability. Correct.
So, yeah, it is very possible that some of these scores are very, very high. And we still say this profile is consistent with a diagnosis of dyslexia.
[00:09:30] Speaker B: Correct.
Usually the next big question is, what do we do now?
What do we do with all this information you just threw at us?
[00:09:41] Speaker A: Yeah, a lot of right now it's.
[00:09:43] Speaker B: Like, okay, now what do we do with this?
Um, and to go along with that is who should we share this with? Right, yes. Um, you know, we recommend, like, in the beginning, I don't remember which episode it was, but in the beginning, we talked about talking to your student or child about dyslexia.
You're going to take some time to have to process everything, and that's okay. You might not do anything with it right away. You might have to sit there for a while and just kind of marinate on the information. Because just like any other diagnosis that you may get for yourself or your child, there's a grieving process.
You know. You know that this is going to impact them. And so you kind of have to go through that process of understanding and getting mad and being angry and sad and going through the acceptance and then getting to the next steps, and that's all normal. I just really want to point that out that that's very normal. And everybody goes. All parents go through that, no matter.
[00:11:04] Speaker A: What it is, no matter what. Right. Even if your student is not diagnosed with dyslexia or any other learning disability or other impairment, you're going to have situations as a parent where you get some information and you have to decide, who do I share this with and how am I going to handle it?
My biggest piece of advice to all parents going through that is take a deep breath and just give it a minute. We ultimately do recommend that parents share this diagnosis with the pediatrician, with the school professionals working with that child and with the child.
But the timeline and when. Right. When is appropriate, and what information to share is going to vary across all situations.
[00:12:12] Speaker B: Correct.
[00:12:13] Speaker A: So, yes.
[00:12:15] Speaker B: So what do we do now? Kind of is up to you. But typically, we do recommend the next steps when we talk to a parent so that they know the next steps when they're ready to do them.
[00:12:28] Speaker A: Exactly. So it's kind of like, I think when people ask, what do we do now?
I think they're only. I think they're kind of asking two questions, right? What do we do now? Where? How are we supposed to share this information? And then what do we do now? Like, are we supposed to pursue intervention? Do we have to now push for accommodations? Right. It's almost like two doors open with the one question, what do we do now?
[00:12:59] Speaker B: Correct. And really, like we said in a previous episode, we do recommend that you share it with the doctor so that they can get an official diagnosis, because that will help with college in high school and further testing later in their lives. You need that paper trail because they want to see that it's starting. Started in, wherever, whenever it started.
And then, you know, depending on the parent, sometimes they share it with the school, and sometimes they don't.
And that's a personal decision, too, of the family.
[00:13:41] Speaker A: It depends, too, on why they were coming to us.
[00:13:45] Speaker B: Right.
[00:13:45] Speaker A: For an assessment in the first place.
Sometimes they are coming to us for an assessment because the relationship between school and them has kind of broken down, and they're having a lot of grief and instability surrounding that. And so that. My advice is going to be different, right? To a degree.
To a degree. My advice is going to be different to I'm going to take into account what other factors are happening.
[00:14:17] Speaker B: Correct. And like on another flip side, they might have been sent by the school.
[00:14:23] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:14:24] Speaker B: So then maybe that's a different conversation because the school is expecting to see it. So it's very different.
We also get a lot how do I help my child? And I think that's really the ultimate question. Right.
Each parent is really thinking of right away.
[00:14:44] Speaker A: I mean that's often. Right. Why did you bring them in the first place? Because you're trying to figure out what's going on, right. So you're seeking out this. At least if you're coming to our center, you are seeking this diagnosis out specifically, you have probably done some degree of research into our center and have made the decision to come seek assessment. And that's what I usually start with when I'm talking to a parent. You are helping your child, you brought them to us, you're seeking information and we can walk you through the next steps.
But you are helping your child already.
[00:15:32] Speaker B: Right. Because really the ultimate goal, right. Is to see how do they learn best and how can we help them learn best. And I think that's kind of what that question gets back to.
[00:15:43] Speaker A: Very much.
[00:15:46] Speaker B: So. What should I expect from my doctor?
[00:15:50] Speaker A: So usually a doctor is going to receive this report from a parent.
We do not send these reports anywhere but a parent. The parent. Once you have this report in your hands, it is yours to do with what you wish. If you have a minor child, if it's an adult, then it is their document to do with whatever they wish.
You should expect your doctor to read the report.
You can send along contact information for the person who wrote the report. The doctor may have follow up questions for us.
I would say a more typical situation though is that they're going to take this report and they're going to look at the data and they're going to add a diagnostic code to your child's chart.
[00:16:51] Speaker B: Yeah. And basically they might ask you a couple questions of why you went in the first place or something like that, just to kind of if they hadn't referred you to the center. Because that does happen quite a few times, times too where the doctor has sent the parent to us. So.
So what should I expect from my child's school? And that's a really big question.
[00:17:16] Speaker A: That is a really big question.
What you should expect from your child's school will depend on where your child goes to school, what kind of setting, whether it be a public school or A private school.
Different resources are different, are available at different settings. So this can vary pretty greatly.
What you should expect if you do share the results with your child's school will also depend on what are you asking of the school.
[00:17:57] Speaker B: Correct.
[00:17:58] Speaker A: Do these reports automatically trigger a referral for special education/A 504, which is accommodations and right modifications? No, they don't. These assessments do not automatically trigger any process as it relates to school.
[00:18:22] Speaker B: Correct.
How do I tell my child? And should I tell my child?
[00:18:28] Speaker A: Yeah, this episode, just by the way, we did do an episode specifically on how to talk to your child about dyslexia and we went down into at what age. I would share some pretty specific information.
So if you're interested in that one. Absolutely. Go back and give that one a listen.
That one was pretty early on in our, in our podcast and you know, spoiler alert. We do strongly recommend that you do talk to your child about dyslexia and that you use the word dyslexia and that you give a very age appropriate explanation when, where and how you choose to do that is up to you. Up to you.
But I can very much tell you from lots of years of experience that students who can talk about their own diagnosis can therefore advocate for themselves and have a much better, more grounded educational experience overall. If they do know I have plus.
[00:19:42] Speaker B: They know there's something going on. They just know exactly. Having a word for it is helpful.
[00:19:50] Speaker A: Right?
I have really never seen a favorable outcome by keeping a diagnosis away from a child.
That's anecdotal based on my own professional experience. But yes, you should talk to your child about dyslexia and we also have resources for that too. I have been asked to be a part of conversations with students just actually pretty recently. I have a student who I have been seeing for actually quite a while and the parent chose to hold off on the word dyslexia for a period of time. It was a brief, brief period of time. But then when that parent felt ready to have that conversation with their student, they asked me to be a part of it so that I could provide some kind of extra details. And it went really, really well.
I think the student felt really relieved. This was a young lady, she is now nine. I've been seeing her for about a year and she really was like, felt very good about it in the end. So I think sometimes we ask that question because we're really nervous to share, kind of as a callback to the emotional response that an adult might have to something like dyslexia a child may or may not have that same emotional response.
[00:21:29] Speaker B: Right.
[00:21:30] Speaker A: They may really be like, oh, okay, that's fine.
Especially a littler one. They don't have that.
They don't have that long standing history of kind of the taboo of using a diagnosis.
[00:21:47] Speaker B: Correct.
[00:21:49] Speaker A: So often the hang up here is really the. The parents hang up.
[00:21:57] Speaker B: So where can I find more information about dyslexia? Well, Dyslexia Achievement center has a resource page, which is a very good page.
[00:22:05] Speaker A: Just saying, just saying, just saying, just that.
[00:22:09] Speaker B: Also the International Dyslexia association has a lot of resources.
Chad, which is the.
I'm not going to get this right. The center, it's the ADHD website.
They have a lot of information on dyslexia. Also lots of parent pages and blogs.
[00:22:43] Speaker A: Yeah. They also have, I will say as like a word of caution. I always recommend parents go to International Dyslexia association, something like our website.
Something that is an org at the end. That's right.
I do not typically recommend Facebook.
[00:23:11] Speaker B: Correct.
[00:23:12] Speaker A: Mommy groups as a first right line of information. I think there is a lot of value in a social media group that is designed to be a support kind of network. Right.
But the advice given in those places so often is actually really incorrect or harmful.
It is usually based on only one person's lived experience and not vetted by experts in the field. And so while, yes, you could absolutely find support there and some great information.
[00:23:54] Speaker B: Right.
[00:23:55] Speaker A: I always say let's start with places like International Dyslexia Association. Let's start with the information available on our website.
You know, and we are a resource when we are the one giving the assessment. We are also a resource. We do include in our assessment reports links to International Dyslexia Association.
Yale University's Dyslexia center also has some very parent reader friendly information. We link to that on our assessment report as well. Well, so my advice to parents is go through the professional channels first before your turn into your social media Networks.
[00:24:49] Speaker B: Yeah, like Understood.org is another one.
They have some really good information in the Cleveland Clinic which is.
It's actually a big medical center.
[00:25:08] Speaker A: For those of you to Chad, which Nicole mentioned earlier, it's children and adults with adhd. So it's C H A D D Chad.
And yes, they are a really great information.
They are funded by the cdc. So they are an official channel of real information.
[00:25:32] Speaker B: And because dyslexia and ADHD are very linked, they do have lots of dyslexia information on their website.
[00:25:43] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:25:46] Speaker B: So yeah, there's definitely some good information out there. There's some really good books too that are on our website that you can also look through. But I mean, I think, you know, whoever did the assessment is a good first resource.
[00:26:00] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:26:01] Speaker B: And then, you know, kind of branching out from there because they can always give you even more options.
[00:26:08] Speaker A: And often the things that are that assessment report may really be specific to a child. Where if we're seeing way more of that phonological component, I might recommend one course of action.
Where if we're seeing a little less of that, I might recommend a different course of action.
[00:26:29] Speaker B: Correct.
[00:26:30] Speaker A: So not all dyslexia is alike.
[00:26:32] Speaker B: Correct.
[00:26:32] Speaker A: Therefore, not all of the advice I'm going to give is going to be alike. That's where the professionals have that ability to discern what is going to be quality information for that parent that's in front of you.
[00:26:52] Speaker B: So our next question is will we qualify for an IEP or 504 plan?
[00:26:58] Speaker A: Yeah, again that will depend. Does this process automatically trigger an evaluation through school? It does not.
We do have a whole episode too on how to talk to school.
So how to talk through a diagnosis to at school.
So that one is a really good probably re listen.
[00:27:23] Speaker B: And also we have an episode on Ieps versus 504 plans. So if you don't know the difference, it explains both of them and why you use one versus the other.
[00:27:34] Speaker A: Not all students with dyslexia are going to need an IEP or 504 plan. So it is not an automatic process.
And related definitely is. Okay, so let's say we are seeking an IEP or 504 plan. What accommodations should we ask for?
That is also going to be a case by case basis. It's going to depend on what are the deficit areas that this dyslexia is affecting.
[00:28:08] Speaker B: Correct. And so that's also either the whoever did the assessment or who's doing the intervention would be really good resource to know to ask for that information, I think.
[00:28:23] Speaker A: Yeah, that should be individual advice. We do include again in our DAC reports we link to and include the general recommendations from International Dyslexia Association. So we do include include the very common accommodations such as extended time or audio format, those kinds of accommodations that are very general blanket statements. We do include those as a good place to start.
[00:29:00] Speaker B: Correct.
What is the best intervention for myself or my child?
[00:29:06] Speaker A: Yeah, this one's a really easy one actually.
Right. We always and we always recommend structured literacy. If a student does meet criteria for dyslexia, we are going to recommend that that instruction be given one on one with a qualified professional.
We even give this recommendation.
It's happened now really twice in the last six months or so where I've had an assessment and actually they don't meet the criteria for dyslexia, but there are clearly some deficit skills that the ability is not matching what. What is happening at school. So actually phonological awareness came out pretty much just great, but they're not achieving that phonics in school. And for a student like that, I would still recommend the one on one intervention where it is tailored to that individual's needs.
That student may need a little bit less on the phonics, but a lot more on maybe fluency, maybe some other skills.
[00:30:24] Speaker B: Correct.
[00:30:24] Speaker A: That is what the structured literacy approach. At the end of the day, that is what that is. And that is always magnificent recommendation.
[00:30:36] Speaker B: We sometimes get the question of will they ever be able to read?
[00:30:40] Speaker A: Oh, yeah.
[00:30:43] Speaker B: And obviously with intervention.
[00:30:47] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's. It's always kind of a heartbreaking question to hear.
[00:30:53] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:30:54] Speaker A: But a satisfying one to answer because, yes, many people with dyslexia, especially those who have gotten early intervention, go on to be very skilled readers and very skilled writers and tend to have very, very good outcomes in life.
[00:31:14] Speaker B: Yep.
And how does this impact other areas of my students or my academic areas?
[00:31:23] Speaker A: Yes, we get asked this an awful lot.
I think parents sometimes even drill down specifically on, okay, but why is my student also not doing so good at math?
You know, sometimes we get that.
But dyslexia is a language disorder and it affects all areas of academics because that's truly every single subject area. We need to use reading to learn new material, especially really after we've made that bridge in school where we're not really learning to read directly anymore, we're learning to reading to learn. But yeah, this dyslexia diagnosis is going to impact all areas of academics.
I experienced some pushback when I was still teaching at the high school level where the diagnosis was a specific disability in reading, so, AKA dyslexia.
But the accommodations were in place across all subject matters. And this was also at a time where there was some vehement pushback on accommodations and lots of justification of time kind of situations that were, were tough and I really had to stick to.
We know that reading is necessary for all subject matters. And so yes, even in a subject that you don't think has reading involved, know that student still needs their accommodations in all subject areas.
[00:33:29] Speaker B: And then is there any technology that can make this easier for my child or myself.
[00:33:34] Speaker A: Yeah, you get asked that one quite a lot. And I think this one can is kind of akin to our accommodations question. Right. It's separate but also related.
Some of the pieces of technology I do recommend, audiobooks, things that can make that process easier.
Speech to text can be a great tool.
[00:34:03] Speaker B: Correct.
[00:34:03] Speaker A: For those students, you know, having access to a keyboard in general can be a great.
Can be great. These do not replace the need for specific instruction, but they can absolutely make the workload more manageable for our students with dyslexia, so.
[00:34:28] Speaker B: Correct.
[00:34:29] Speaker A: I mean, the good news is, yeah, there's a lot of technology exists that can specifically target dyslexic learners.
[00:34:38] Speaker B: I think the important part that we've said in other podcasts, though, is that the student needs to be explicitly taught how to use the technology.
[00:34:46] Speaker A: Correct.
[00:34:47] Speaker B: Otherwise it's just sitting there.
[00:34:49] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:34:49] Speaker B: And it doesn't really help anymore.
[00:34:51] Speaker A: Pet peeve. Yeah. Definite pet peeve is, yeah, there are some really, really great tools, but if the student doesn't know how to use them and if you actually absolutely have no idea how to use them, that don't recommend them to a student.
[00:35:04] Speaker B: Correct.
[00:35:05] Speaker A: There are some new apps that I'm aware of that I have not tried yet, and therefore they don't make my recommendation list.
Because I'm not ready to make a suggestion.
[00:35:18] Speaker B: Correct. Yeah. Because, you know, we need to teach the student how to use it for it to actually work.
[00:35:26] Speaker A: Yeah. I think the final question that I get asked is, okay, so we've kind of digested this assessment. I have a better understanding of what these numbers mean. I have a better understanding of how my child learns. Does this assessment, can I give this to a practitioner? And the practitioner automatically know where to start instruction, and that answer is no.
[00:35:58] Speaker B: Yes, that is true. It's why, when you come to our center, the first time you see us, we do an informal assessment because we need to know where the student is in their skills and where to start.
[00:36:14] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. So these more formal, standardized assessments get at sort of like, for better or worse, your, like, brain's ability to do a task.
[00:36:28] Speaker B: Right.
[00:36:28] Speaker A: Where the informal assessments that we give in terms of intervention, they look at what specific language skills, as far as, do they have their short vowel sounds? Do they understand some basic specific spelling rules? Do they know what a suffix or a prefix is? Those kinds of skills are not covered on these formal diagnosis of dyslexia tests.
[00:36:55] Speaker B: Correct.
[00:36:56] Speaker A: So we do still need to do informal assessments to see where are we going to start. Our structured literacy Pathway for this student.
[00:37:11] Speaker B: Great example.
[00:37:12] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:37:13] Speaker B: So, Maggie, what is going on outside of dyslexia?
[00:37:17] Speaker A: Yeah. So as we record this, it is April 1st, also known as April Fool's Day.
Growing up in my house, this is my father's favorite holiday.
So I have always pretty on Edge for April 1, because even well into adulthood, my parents live pretty close to us. We're within like 15 to 20 minutes. So we see my parents fairly often, slash every day. My mom watches my kids for me, so we are pretty involved still with my parents, for sure. But I'm always a little on edge because you just never know when something is going to happen. And it hasn't happened yet today, which makes me even more nervous. Growing up in my house, you would expect, like, you would try to put your shoes on and there would be, like, paper towels stuffed in them.
His favorite favorite, which was very annoying. He would put like, a rubber band around the. The sprayer on the kitchen sink.
And so when you would turn it on, it would like, boop, spray you. So none of us wanted to be the first one to, like, you know, we couldn't see it. It was like he'd use, like, the clear ones. He was so sneaky. And so you're like, I don't know. Is it. Is it triggered? Is it not triggered? I'm not turning on that sink.
Not me. Not this time. But it was usually me. So that was fun.
He tried to serve my mom hot water instead of coffee this morning. And I said that was a dangerous one.
[00:39:00] Speaker B: That.
[00:39:00] Speaker A: That one was too far to add. Too far.
What's going on with you, Nicole?
[00:39:08] Speaker B: Well, I love springtime. And so it's springtime in Wisconsin, which means some days it's 70. Almost 80 the other day.
[00:39:17] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:39:17] Speaker B: And then we get 60 degrees lower and we get some snow. So this week we have. Right now it's like 42 degrees out, but we're going to be up to. To like almost 70 again. And then we're gonna have snow and ice sometime later this week. So it's always fun to not really know what's gonna happen next.
I love warmer weather and just having more sunlight. So that is really my sweet.
[00:39:45] Speaker A: Yeah. Spot for the spring, the sunlight. Thank you for the sunlight. I. I know you need the sunshine for sure.
Thank you, everybody for listening. If you do like our show, please follow us on social media. Reach out if you have any questions or would like us to discuss a topic. If you have a question about something Nicole or I said today or anytime. That's also something you can reach out to us about. We'd love to hear your feedback. If you do like our show, please be sure to follow and rate our show on your favorite podcast Place player. This is how we reach more listeners and get to help more families. Thank you everybody.
[00:40:25] Speaker B: Thank you.
