Episode 83–School Based Behavior

[00:00:00] Speaker A: And I'm Nicole. Welcome to the DAC Dyslexia and Coffee Podcast. We're so happy you could join us. We're both moms and dyslexia interventionists who want to talk about our students and children. What dyslexia is, how it affects our kids, strategies to help and topics related to other learning disabilities will also be covered in this podcast. Parents are not alone, and we want to give voice to the concerns and struggles we are all having. This is a safe place to learn more about how to help our children grow and succeed in school, in the world. Grab a cup of coffee and enjoy the conversation. [00:00:31] Speaker B: Hi, everybody. Welcome to episode 83 of Dyslexia and Coffee Podcast. We're going to start today's episode like we do every single time with the concept of the week. So the concept of the week is our opportunity as practitioners to kind of peel back the curtain a little bit and let everyone into an intervention session. We like to teach about things that either we're teaching directly to our students or we're teaching our parents about. So today's concept of the week is antecedent or antecedent behavior. This is something that is often talked about when at school we do something called a functional behavior analysis. Right? So there's a problem behavior occurring and someone goes in and does a lot of observation and we figure out, okay, what is. What's kind of the function of the behavior? And one of the most important things to look for is the antecedent. So the antecedent is any kind of environmental training factor. It could be a trigger that led up to a specific behavior. Often it's like a problematic behavior. These can be a lot of different things. It could just be an instructional command, Right? Like being asked to do something can lead to undesired behavior. It could be an environmental change. A certain student enters the space that can be an antecedent to behavior, any kind of social interaction, or really, it can be an internal state. Feeling hungry or anxious or ill can lead to problematic behaviors. And it's kind of the. The job of the investigator, if you speak, to kind of figure out, okay, what, what are those things that lead up to this problematic behavior and how do we either mitigate or change the environment to figure out how to help? [00:02:50] Speaker A: Yes. So welcome to episode 83, which is what we're. 83 is going to be school based behavior. [00:02:59] Speaker B: Buckle up, buckle up. [00:03:00] Speaker A: Because it's a big one. So school based behavior looks very different in many different ways and in different situations. But basically it's behavior that interrupts a student's or their classmates ability to learn. [00:03:18] Speaker B: Yes. [00:03:19] Speaker A: So that can be a lot of different things. [00:03:22] Speaker B: Right? It surely can. [00:03:25] Speaker A: So the most common classroom behaviors that happen include disruptive talking or noise. Like a student that's continuously talking, whispering, giggling, humming, shouting, making car noises and that interrupts their learning and their peers. [00:03:50] Speaker B: Yeah. Defiance or non compliance. Also something like refusing to do work, ignoring instructions or talking back to staff. We're going to circle back to this one in a big way in a little while. [00:04:06] Speaker A: Yep. Disengagement or their off task behavior. So like they're daydreaming, they fall asleep or they're not paying attention. And that could be for many different reasons. They could be bored, they could be tired, they could have ADHD and be kind of their brain is doing something else for that minute or sometimes sleeping is shutting down because they're emotionally overloaded. [00:04:35] Speaker B: Absolutely. Physical disruptions. Right. So literally getting out of their seat without permission, slamming books, drop kicking math [00:04:47] Speaker A: books, you know, those kind of things. [00:04:50] Speaker B: Those kind of things, you know, or. Or interrupting with their physical body. [00:04:55] Speaker A: Yeah. Another thing is misuse of technology like texting in the middle of class, being on social media or doing gaming instead of being in instruction. And that's more probably older students because they have Chromebooks and stuff that they work off of. [00:05:14] Speaker B: Yes. [00:05:15] Speaker A: But that can disrupt their learning. Peer learning. Peer. People get a little bit more distracted by all that. [00:05:23] Speaker B: The things. [00:05:23] Speaker A: The whole thing. [00:05:24] Speaker B: The whole thing. And obviously, you know, structural problems too. Like. [00:05:30] Speaker A: Okay, right. [00:05:32] Speaker B: Have lots of opinions on how we are really using this kind of technology in schools. Yep. And how not quite appropriate I think all of that is, you know, and another common classroom kind of misbehavior. Interpersonal conflicts. Right. Aggression or bullying, teasing or just like a one off mean comment. Bringing personal disputes into the classroom. Right. Something happened on at recess, the disagreement. And then we're bringing it into the classroom or aiming for older kids. Right. You know, something happened outside of school completely and we're going to now bring it into the classroom and it is going to be misbehavior. [00:06:24] Speaker A: Yep. So some things that can kind of impact behavior at school, you know, emotional or mental health. [00:06:31] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:06:33] Speaker A: Like 10% of students have trauma, abuse or anxiety. Developmental changes. Right. Going through puberty. [00:06:42] Speaker B: Yeah. 100% of students will have this problem. Yeah. [00:06:48] Speaker A: That can cause your mood swings and you know, decrease concentration. [00:06:52] Speaker B: Yeah. And what's really hard about the puberty issue. Right. Is while 100% of the population who grows to adulthood will go through puberty it doesn't mean they're all going through it at the exact same time. [00:07:10] Speaker A: So that makes it complicated. [00:07:11] Speaker B: That makes it real complicated. [00:07:16] Speaker A: Lack of engagement. You know, they're bored, they're not interested in the material or they're looking for attention. Right. They're seeking peer teacher attention through disruption. [00:07:26] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:07:28] Speaker A: So I'm going to go through some statistics I found, and I'm going to go through two different types because one is a little bit older than the other. So. According to the CDC, nearly 1 in 5 US children age 3 to 17 has been diagnosed with a mental, emotional or behavioral disorder. Those conditions include anxiety, which seems to be the highest between. And their group of percentages is a little interesting. 8 to 20% of them behavioral is between 6 and 8%. Depression, 3 and 18%. And they found in 2016 to 2021, the rate of anxiety raised from 8.4 to 11.1. Then I looked at the Maternal and Child Health Survey, because that one's a little bit newer. And in 2023, there were more than 5.3 million adolescents age 12 to 17 that had currently a diagnosed mental or behavioral health problem, including anxiety, depression, or behavior problems. Anxiety was still the number one most common condition and at 16.1, followed by depression at 8% and then behavioral at 6%. [00:08:58] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:09:00] Speaker A: And so the prevalence between 2016 and 2023 in this study was that the diagnosis increased 35% from 15% to 20% and anxiety was the one that increased 61%. [00:09:21] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. You know, and we can look at, okay, what environmental factors were happening during this time period. Right, right. We look from 2016 to 2023, okay, global pandemic. Right. That was in there in the normal of this guy. And along with that, while certainly that does not explain the entirety of that increase by any stretch of the imagination, it is a huge factor in why we saw such an upshot during that time period. [00:10:07] Speaker A: But I also think just the environment, too, right now with social media and how people are treating each other as adults. [00:10:16] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:10:17] Speaker A: Those are also impacting. [00:10:18] Speaker B: And I will note, students, that we have not seen that number go back down. [00:10:25] Speaker A: Right. [00:10:25] Speaker B: So while absolutely. The pandemic was a factor and continues to still be a factor because of how different our environments are, are post Covid. It does not explain the whole thing. That is some. That is, I will say one of the most common questions I actually get as a practitioner is like, how much did the pandemic impact our mental health? [00:10:50] Speaker A: And I mean, yes, it impacted us hugely. [00:10:54] Speaker B: Hugely. And it impacted our Society in general, it does not account for it all. For it all. There are other things happening that also are contributing to this increase. For sure. Yeah. [00:11:17] Speaker A: So what impact does behavior have on the environment? So. Well, behavioral issues significantly disrupt the learning environment, obviously. [00:11:28] Speaker B: Sure do. [00:11:30] Speaker A: It reduces actual instructional time and it causes high stress and potential burnout among the people teaching. So the educators or the teachers in the class. [00:11:43] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, almost every single educator I know and have contact regularly with all cite this as a primary concern. And a primary source. Source of their job stress is the behaviors that are occurring in classrooms that we have not really seen at this high of rate before. At all levels. At all levels. [00:12:20] Speaker A: All ages. [00:12:21] Speaker B: All ages. It's. It is more and it is not coming back down. At least that is not what our current statistics are showing. [00:12:37] Speaker A: Correct. [00:12:41] Speaker B: So here's some kind of key strategies. Right. Including setting clear expectations, using logical consequences. Okay. You know, and teaching positive behaviors as a personal antidote. I have seen a really stark move away from actual logical consequences in schools and in classrooms and even in parenting styles. And what brain research tells us is they are extremely necessary. That doesn't mean that every time your kid misbehaves that we have this huge punishment. It means that something logical is a consequence to that behavior. They throw something on the floor, they no longer have that item. You don't get to go repeatedly do that again. And then we have to think about the positive part of that. Right. It's. It is both. If we lean too hard on these authoritarian kind of problem. Right. Authority coming down. Authoritarian versus permissive. Both are extremely problematic. [00:14:04] Speaker A: Correct. [00:14:05] Speaker B: And they're happening both in people's homes and in schools. [00:14:10] Speaker A: Correct. So in the classroom, some things that they can do is do preventative and proactive strategies. So they establish school wide classroom and individual support systems for students. And this encourages positive behavior from all students. [00:14:31] Speaker B: Yes, Behavior is in all school. All school initiative. [00:14:38] Speaker A: And then talking about what Maggie said earlier, Individualized supports. You know those functional behavior assessments that we talked about earlier. And developing a behavior intervention plan that addresses the specific needs of a student to manage disruption, refusal or safety issues. [00:14:57] Speaker B: Yeah. Often in school. So some kind of like acronyms that are thrown around that I think are important to know because people do just say like a BIP or an fba. And just for listener education behavioral intervention plan is bip. If a student has an IEP for an emotional or behavioral reason, it is necessary. It is part of the IEP that that VIP is included within that document is often not included. And it. That's actually not legal. That is necessary documentation if that is a student with an emotional behavioral iep. And there has to be also a new fba, the Functional behavior Analysis, to go along with that, to make sure that that is up to date. Personal. Just annoyance. I would see IEPs come my way with a. With a. With a bip. Or sometimes we say bip. That was from like fourth grade, and I was teaching 11th and 12th graders, like, well, that's not even close to what this kid is doing anymore. Right. We need to really take a look at what. What is current. That is why every year. That needs to be looked at. [00:16:36] Speaker A: Yeah. And so the next thing too is remember skill building and to. And focusing on their independence is really important. You have to teach them and model appropriate behavior. They're not just gonna. It's not gonna happen otherwise. [00:16:55] Speaker B: No. [00:16:56] Speaker A: Right. Because. [00:16:57] Speaker B: No, they don't. [00:16:59] Speaker A: They need to learn. [00:17:00] Speaker B: Correct. Right. We. We don't do a good job of explicitly teaching. This is the expected behavior. I think sometimes in like a preschool or a kindergarten class. Right. You have all these kind of songs about, this is how we stay in line. This is how we sit in our seat. This is how we like all those things. And they are really effective at that age. And then we lose that along the way. And the thought is, will, kids should just know what is the expected behavior? And I'm here to tell you, no, they don't. And not even our. Not. Not even our neurotypical kids actually know what the expected behaviors are in a classroom. Because that can vary teacher by teacher, day by day, even activity to activity. The expectations may change. [00:18:04] Speaker A: Correct. [00:18:05] Speaker B: So. So it is difficult for all students, not just our neurodiverse kids. [00:18:16] Speaker A: Correct. Another thing you can put in place is structure and visible support. Visual supports. Oh, my gosh, they're visible. You know, visible. They're invisible. So you use like, a visual schedule, a framework first, then board timers to cue for transitions and aid with receptive language and memory concerns. Those things really help students know that it's time to change what they're doing. And the expected behavior can change just depending on what they're doing too. Like, right. Some specials, you're, it's okay to be out of your seat. Other specials, you can't be out of your seat. [00:18:55] Speaker B: Well, and again, speaking for the older students here, this is another one that often I see in elementary classrooms, sometimes in middle school classrooms, and almost never in high school classrooms. And I will make the argument that a visual aid does not have to have silly little Cartoony pictures. It does not have to look like it is made for a baby. It could sit simply have the bell schedule posted. Right. Some classrooms in high school, like, they don't even have the bell schedule posted. And listen, everybody could benefit from that support. [00:19:37] Speaker A: Yeah, definitely. [00:19:38] Speaker B: You know, or just a real quick, hey, these are the three bullet points that we're going to learn about today in today's class. [00:19:45] Speaker A: Yep. [00:19:46] Speaker B: That can go an incredibly long way again, for all kids, not just our neurotypical kids. [00:19:55] Speaker A: Correct. And data driven decision making still needs to be throughout the whole process. Right. You need to continue collecting data to monitor progress and adjust the intervention plans to make sure they're effective. [00:20:11] Speaker B: Absolutely. Because guess what? What works on Monday doesn't always work on Tuesday. [00:20:17] Speaker A: So fun. So some different behavioral expectations. Right. That you need to actually teach students. You know, it's those social skills. [00:20:35] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:20:36] Speaker A: Right. Emotional social skills, all those things. Unless you identify it, explain it, model it, they're not going to know how to deal with it. [00:20:46] Speaker B: No, no. [00:20:47] Speaker A: And I am all for. [00:20:48] Speaker B: Right. Using words like respect, responsibility, even at very young ages, but not without making it very explicit. And of course, the definitions change over time. Right. When my kids are little, like, respect means that you do listen and you do what I say, say and I will listen to you. And then we leave it at there for now. [00:21:12] Speaker A: Right. [00:21:12] Speaker B: But as we age, it includes also using polite manners. What does that mean? That means please and thank you. That means this or not. [00:21:21] Speaker A: Right. [00:21:21] Speaker B: It means listening to all others, taking care of school property. You know, you increase the definitions over time. [00:21:29] Speaker A: Right. [00:21:31] Speaker B: But still making it explicit at all different stages. [00:21:37] Speaker A: Exactly. [00:21:37] Speaker B: You know, I mean, at your place of employment, you have an employment handbook. Right? [00:21:43] Speaker A: Exactly. And that's your expectations of being at work. [00:21:48] Speaker B: Right? Right. Your boss gets to tell you what to do as it's an expected behavior. Yeah. [00:21:54] Speaker A: So like when they're younger, safety can be keeping your hands and feet to yourself, walking in the hallways. And maybe in high school, the safety is you turn the Bunsen burner off before you leave the room. [00:22:04] Speaker B: Right. You don't whip your backpack onto your shoulder. You put your backpack. [00:22:10] Speaker A: Right. [00:22:11] Speaker B: You don't slam your locker door into the exact sun. Yeah. Those kinds of things. [00:22:18] Speaker A: Yes. [00:22:19] Speaker B: Ask me how I know. Yeah. [00:22:21] Speaker A: And then responsibility changes. Right. Maybe when they're little, they keep their space tidy, they follow direct instructions. And then when you get older, it's completing your assignments, keeping your workspace tidy, you know, cleaning up after yourself without being told those kind of things. [00:22:42] Speaker B: So some common supports. So some things that are available in schools. So some kind of common intervention and supports in schools. I am here to tell you very clearly that it. It really does start with classroom management. Those teachers in those rooms having clear routines. This is how we enter, this is how we exit. This is, you know, using attention signals, like hand signals or chimes or something to kind of get kids attention. I mean, like 1, 2, 3, eyes on me. Like there's a reason we all know it. And it actually is like, it is effective, right? I mean, my daughter's teacher says, you know, stop, stop, stop, hands on top. And everybody goes. Puts their hands on top of their head. So they make sure everybody is doing it, you know, gotcha. [00:23:40] Speaker A: That's a good one too. [00:23:42] Speaker B: It is a good one. And again, I think we lose that over time. It doesn't have to continue to be childish. [00:23:52] Speaker A: Right? [00:23:53] Speaker B: But you know, a high school teacher kind of turning the light down and then turning it back up, right? Can visually get students attention. This is a change now. And there are a lot of things that, that can be done Moving your physical body if you're a teacher walking by your students. Right? That is effective classroom management. [00:24:23] Speaker A: Right. [00:24:24] Speaker B: And this is where behavior really does start, is that class year management. What research shows over and over and over again is actually the teacher in the room matters the most. It really is the personnel that drive this bus. [00:24:48] Speaker A: So another thing that can be useful is positive reinforcement. Like using token economies, reward systems to promote positive interactions. So like aiming for three positive interactions for every one negative. They can get like a sticker or something that really motivates some students. Obviously not all students, but I mean, it is something that, you know, you also want them to show them the positive things. [00:25:20] Speaker B: Oh, absolutely, absolutely. You know, and I will say also for positive behavioral reinforcement again. Yeah. At the elementary little kid level, this might look like a sticker chart. This might look earn, like earning like a ticket to go, I don't know, get something special from the library or something like that. It does not have to be overly complicated, right? It does not have to take a lot of time. That is a lot of like the common excuses that I hear. Like, that takes too much time. Oh, if I did that for every student, it would take all my days. Like, well, actually, no, it does not have to. It absolutely does not have to. These are really things that can be implemented fairly, reasonably and quickly. You have to do find something that motivates these kids. And another common comment I get about just kind of that positive behavioral reinforcement is like, well, I don't get a cookie at work if I do my job. And I would argue, yeah, you do. You get a paycheck. And, like, also, when you do something positive at work or at home, I sure hope someone is noticing and at least saying a thank you or, you know. Exactly. And if that's not happening for you, like, well, I think maybe there's some other kind of things to be thinking about it, like, I'm sorry, that's not happening for you. And I'm not saying it's going to happen all of the time, but that positive behavioral reinforcement is an extremely effective tool. Research shows us again, over and over, it's one of the most effective tools for modifying behavior and moving behavior more towards the desirable outcome. [00:27:11] Speaker A: Correct. And then, of course, another thing you can do is environmental adjustments. Like. Like adapting the environment so you reduce triggers. Right. If it's a sensory noise or something, maybe reducing the noise or changing seating so that the sun isn't blinding them. Or, you know, there's different things that you can do in the environment to kind of help students be able to manage their own. [00:27:37] Speaker B: Not letting them sit with the same peer that irritates them every single day. Slash their best friend who gets them going every single day. Maybe moving seats would be effective, Nicole? [00:27:51] Speaker A: That might be effective. Yes. [00:27:53] Speaker B: Okay. [00:27:54] Speaker A: That might be very effective. Or if they're sitting next to their bully. [00:27:59] Speaker B: Yes. [00:27:59] Speaker A: And the bully is able to get out of stuff and your kid can't. That is also why you should move a seat. [00:28:10] Speaker B: Maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe. Not that we're speaking from any kind of personal experience. [00:28:15] Speaker A: Not at all. [00:28:16] Speaker B: Here. You know, and I think before we close out and I. I think a more detailed episode on how exactly neurodiversity can affect the way we're perceiving child behaviors. It affects it a lot. Right. When we. When our kids are showing a behavior at school or at home, the. Figuring out the why. I'm not saying always, but figuring out the core why is a really effective tool in figuring out. [00:28:57] Speaker A: Okay, well, how. [00:28:57] Speaker B: How do we. What can we do about it? Right. [00:29:00] Speaker A: Correct. [00:29:01] Speaker B: A kid rolling his eyes at the teacher. It may not be about disrespect. It may be about something emotionally happening within that child and understanding that and being able to influence the behavior based on what is motivating that kid is going to make a huge difference. [00:29:28] Speaker A: Agreed. So, Maggie, what's happening beyond dyslexia? [00:29:32] Speaker B: Oh, goodness. Nicole. Well, today, currently, almost all of our children are with us at our job. [00:29:43] Speaker A: Yes. [00:29:45] Speaker B: So we are really. Actually, this is real life. There's just. I mean, the chronic. There's so much going on. I think it's actually been really fun. Listeners listening to this episode will have already heard us record episodes with our own kids. And it's a pretty cool special day here at dac. It is. What's going on with you? [00:30:12] Speaker A: Well, I think, you know, going back to some of that mental health aspect from earlier, I mean, I think it's been kind of a transition for us in our house because we. Our son had some behaviors due to his high anxiety, so we had to make a really big decision, and we pulled him for the rest of the eight weeks of school, and we're going to homeschool him and try to get him into a different school next year. [00:30:41] Speaker B: So that's a lot. [00:30:43] Speaker A: It is a lot. So, I mean, people who are listening, it happens to us, too. [00:30:50] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think less two listeners think that we have some magic wand. Boy, I wish we did. [00:30:59] Speaker A: Me too. [00:31:00] Speaker B: But I think this podcast is not about magic wands. Correct. It is about real life. Sometimes we do have solutions, and sometimes we're winging it. Real people, we're real moms. We're real practitioners. And this podcast is one of the ways we both get to actually share our lives and what is really, really going on. And I know that that's been a really tough transition for all of you guys. And I think sharing that, I hope at least reaches one of our listeners and makes them not feel alone or crazy, because that's what you feel like when that's what you feel like. I might be crazy, but not about this. Right, Right. But thank you for sharing that. That's, I think, important for listeners to hear. And if you do like our show, please follow us on social media and reach out if you have any questions or you would like us to discuss a topic, please. If you could follow and rate us on your favorite podcast players, that is how we reach more listeners and we get to help more families. So thank you, everybody. [00:32:26] Speaker A: Thank you.