Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hi, I'm Maggie.
[00:00:01] Speaker B: And I'm Nicole. Welcome to the DAC Dyslexia and Coffee Podcast. We're so happy you could join us. We're both moms and dyslexia interventionists who want to talk about our students and children.
What dyslexia is, how it affects our kids, strategies to help and topics related to other learning disabilities will also be covered in this podcast. Parents are not alone, and we want to give voice to the concerns and struggles we are all having.
This is a safe place to learn more about how we help our children grow and succeed in school, in the world. Grab a cup of coffee and enjoy the conversation.
[00:00:33] Speaker A: Hi, everybody. Welcome to episode 84 of Dyslexia and Coffee Podcast.
We're going to start today's episode like we do every week with the concept of the week.
So the concept of the week is our opportunity as practitioners to kind of peel back the curtain a bit and then let everyone in to an intervention session. We like to cover things in this segment that either we would teach directly to our students or that we would be teaching their parents about.
So today's concept of the week is independent practice. Okay. This independent practice is actually exactly what it does sound like.
It is the final phase of a lesson. Okay. So when in indirect instruction, this is otherwise known as the you do part or the student does part, it is really a critical part of the lesson and there should be many, many, many repetitions where the student is doing the practice and the practitioner is watching and giving feedback.
Unfortunately, this is kind of skipped sometimes in especially like a whole classroom context.
You know, usually the teacher's really great at the I do part where the teacher shows the students how to do something.
And we're doing okay on the we do part where the students and the teachers are doing things together.
But when it comes to the independent you do part, sometimes we think like, ah, good enough. They've done it enough times.
And no, usually not usually they haven't done it enough times to really fully be not just accurate, but automatic. Right? We're looking for not just accurate, but automatic here.
If the kid looks a little bit bored by the end of your you do part, you're doing it right.
They should look like, oh, man, that was so easy. That's good. That's a good thing there.
[00:02:49] Speaker B: Yes, it is.
So welcome to episode 84. 10 minutes of homework per night, per grade level. What does that mean?
So I may have gone down a rabbit hole.
I'm going to be very honest. I was the reason that this episode was written as a mother of a child who was getting a lot of homework. And I wanted to see what research actually said about how much homework a
[00:03:22] Speaker A: student should actually have.
[00:03:24] Speaker B: So that was kind of an interesting hole I fell through. And I brought Maggie with me, always
[00:03:31] Speaker A: along for the ride. Nicole.
[00:03:34] Speaker B: So apparently, according to the National PTE and National Education association, it's recommended that 10 minutes of homework per grade level per night is what is expected.
So like 10 minutes for a first grader versus 120 minutes for a 12th grader.
Because homework is a major stressor for students. Right. So you don't want to overwhelm them.
And 56 to 70% of students are citing that it's their primary stressor and often reduces sleep and increases family conflicts.
[00:04:18] Speaker A: What?
[00:04:19] Speaker B: What?
Everybody listening?
[00:04:22] Speaker A: Who's a parent nodding along right now?
[00:04:25] Speaker B: Yeah, it says that the research says that students in high school can show better performance with homework, but studies show that there's a little, only a little benefit for primary students. So elementary grade students and with homework and diminishing, which means the opposite effect of homework that's over four hours a week, which is interesting to me.
[00:04:59] Speaker A: I think, you know, so many factors, right, Combined here, and I think a lot of them relate directly to what homework really should be.
Is that independent practice part?
[00:05:13] Speaker B: Correct?
[00:05:15] Speaker A: We should not be giving kids homework that they do not understand.
They don't know how to do it, they haven't properly done the like I do or we do part, and they're not ready for the them doing it part.
This, you know, the family conflict part. Right.
Not all parents are teachers. And even those of us who are,
[00:05:40] Speaker B: even us who are teachers are not
[00:05:42] Speaker A: really good at working with our own kids. I'm not.
[00:05:45] Speaker B: There's a reason for that, right?
[00:05:47] Speaker A: There's a lot of reasons for that. And so it does become this major point of stress for so many varied reasons.
And yeah, this is not new research, by the way.
[00:06:06] Speaker B: Correct.
[00:06:07] Speaker A: This is really strong and replicated research.
[00:06:13] Speaker B: Correct.
[00:06:14] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:06:15] Speaker B: So Stanford University showed the primary stressor in 2025, 56% of students said it was a primary source of stress is homework over four hours a week is strongly associated with sleep deprivation and anxiety. Makes sense to me.
And it shows there's a report that 30% increase in homework related stress since the 1990s.
So the high stress reporting was at 40% is now at 70%, which is a very interesting climb. And I mean, I'm guessing environmentally there's been a lot of changes since the 1990s that probably impacts that too.
[00:07:02] Speaker A: Oh, absolutely. You know, and just, you know, parenting rules in general. I mean, parenting has changed from the 1990s.
[00:07:11] Speaker B: Correct.
[00:07:12] Speaker A: I mean, the studies on like parent burnout totally correlate.
[00:07:18] Speaker B: Right.
[00:07:19] Speaker A: With this idea of like this increase in stress, family stress at home. Because parents are both spending way more hours at work and way more hours with their kids.
And the way they are viewing their job as a parent is totally different than it was in, you know, for sure, the 80s and definitely also into the 90s, parents did not see that as primarily their job to get their kids homework done.
[00:07:54] Speaker B: Right. And there was also, I think in that time period, there wasn't the technology
[00:08:00] Speaker A: reach that parents didn't know what their homework was.
[00:08:05] Speaker B: Right.
[00:08:06] Speaker A: They didn't know. They didn't know.
[00:08:08] Speaker B: Well, honestly, I don't really know now.
[00:08:10] Speaker A: Oh, I don't know. I'm not saying I know now. I'm just saying that there's, there's so many factors and like those two things both up and to the right, not in a good way.
[00:08:25] Speaker B: They also found, which this was kind of interesting, the family impact that families are 200% more likely to fight over homework when the parents are not, do not have a college degree.
[00:08:35] Speaker A: That is interesting. And I wonder what's underneath that. I can think of.
[00:08:40] Speaker B: I'm sure it has.
There's lots of mental health reasons.
[00:08:44] Speaker A: Oh, definitely mental health. And also kind of the strong desire for your kids, your kids to do, quote, unquote, better than you did. Right. So parents without those degrees want their kids to have them.
[00:08:57] Speaker B: Correct.
[00:08:58] Speaker A: And that perceived extra pressure of getting those, those things done.
[00:09:05] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly.
[00:09:12] Speaker A: Yeah.
So again, not new research at all, but I think it's really worth pointing out what is, is the actual research behind homework. Like, why would we even assign it in the first place if it is this big of a stressor?
Why are we even doing this?
For high school students, if they spend between 31 and 90 minutes on homework daily, they scored about 40 points higher on the SAT mathematics subtest.
So yes, it does matter. Right. Should high school students be expected to do homework?
Overwhelmingly, our research tells us yes, they should.
[00:10:03] Speaker B: But I think sometimes, like the younger kids are expected to do the same amount and that doesn't always align, which kind of comes to our next point of common homework trends. Right. There's that 10 minute rule that's been supported by evidence, but it doesn't always happen. Right.
[00:10:28] Speaker A: And it's also a guess.
Right? Right. It's. We're guessing that this worksheet should take your average third, fourth, fifth grader, about 10 minutes to complete.
[00:10:44] Speaker B: But maybe your child isn't thinking that way or working that way or they didn't understand that concept in class so they don't get it. And so that's going to take them an hour.
[00:10:55] Speaker A: Exactly.
[00:10:57] Speaker B: That's when the tears come.
[00:10:59] Speaker A: Exactly.
[00:11:00] Speaker B: Frustration.
[00:11:00] Speaker A: It's also not enough to just say like, okay, well we're just gonna a timer for 10 minutes and that's all we're gonna do.
Because that also depending on your kid can lead to just other kinds of issues where it's like, oh, fine, I can just zone out for 10 minutes. Or you know, it's, it's a tricky nut to crack for parents.
And now we have to deal with the fact that yes, what my second grader can produce in 10 minutes is not what this teacher expected.
[00:11:36] Speaker B: Correct.
And so they did find through NCES that the average load for high schoolers are 6.8 hours a week of homework and elementary students get 4.7, which if you're going, if they're in first grade, that's a lot of hours of homework.
[00:11:56] Speaker A: A lot of hours of homework.
That is a ridiculous amount of homework for an elementary schooler.
And again, research has shown us over and over again that in the primary school it is ineffective. Homework for primary schoolers is almost no significant impact for academic achievement.
And that again has been replicated.
So what we're doing is we're thinking, oh, more practice equals better.
[00:12:30] Speaker B: Right.
[00:12:31] Speaker A: And absolutely not so. Especially if a student is not independently able to practice the concept that you're sending home.
Because practice does not make perfect. Practice makes permanent.
[00:12:44] Speaker B: Correct. So if they're doing it incorrectly, they're going to make that incorrect way permanent, which you don't really want them to do.
[00:12:52] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:12:54] Speaker B: According to another study, 56% of students surveyed said that their homework is meaningless and busy work.
And I kind of wonder about that.
[00:13:04] Speaker A: Right. And I don't, I, I don't think
[00:13:06] Speaker B: that's across the board everywhere.
[00:13:08] Speaker A: But I think, I don't think they're automatically wrong and thinking that. I think, you know, yes, there's, there's kind of flaws with these kinds of studies because we're using surveys. Anytime you're using surveys, it's not, I'm gonna kind of side eye the study and say, I wonder what is underneath that. Correct. And you know, yeah, your average high schooler is gonna say, yeah, it's, that's stupid. Stupid.
[00:13:35] Speaker B: We all know that.
[00:13:36] Speaker A: But, but also I have been around the block enough to know that some of that homework. Absolutely. Is just busy work and stupid. And their time would be much better spent honestly spending it with their friends in person after school instead of doing this stupid worksheet.
I'm just going to call a spade a spade here. What is actually good for their mental health? Being with their friends in person, actually.
So if we're actually concerned about that, that's what we need to be doing.
[00:14:07] Speaker B: Exactly. Which comes to our next from Stanford research. They said 56% of students report missing out with extracurricular activities and times with friends and families due to homework loads, which. That's a significant amount of students not playing with friends and having family time.
[00:14:27] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:14:27] Speaker B: Doing other things.
[00:14:30] Speaker A: That's a really sad. That's a really sad statistic because I think it's absolutely true.
And I think part of this is wrapped up in also like the achievement culture.
[00:14:43] Speaker B: Right.
[00:14:44] Speaker A: Where a student takes on. I would be very curious to see what the breakdown by gender on this study was too, because what research tells us is that this affects female students at a much higher rate. While I am not saying males do not experience this pressure. They absolutely do.
They absolutely do. And that is problematic.
But the female students do experience this at a higher rate than male students. So I would be curious to see what the gender breakdown was of that study.
[00:15:25] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, it's linked in here, so we could look it up.
[00:15:29] Speaker A: But yeah.
[00:15:32] Speaker B: So kind of talking about what kind of really happens in reality.
This varies so greatly.
[00:15:40] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:15:42] Speaker B: Often many students in elementary are assigned more than the recommended amount.
There was some research that said excessive homework in middle school can reduce academic benefits, sleep loss and lead to stress.
[00:16:02] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:16:02] Speaker B: And that's like over 90 or 100 minutes.
It really is individualized. Right. There's an individualized pace for each student. If it is supposed to be 10 minutes a night, you ask the teacher and they say it's supposed to be 10 minutes at night. And it's still way longer than that for your student.
[00:16:25] Speaker A: You should really talk to the student.
[00:16:26] Speaker B: The student's teacher.
[00:16:27] Speaker A: Really need to talk to the teacher. Because honestly. And I will take.
I will take the teacher's kind of perspective here for a moment.
And they really, truly may not be aware that what they are assigning to the whole class is actually not appropriate for every single kid in their class. Correct. And they're not.
They are likely not. And not because they're lazy or bad teachers.
What they are likely not understanding is what happens to a kid after school. They actually.
You might be able to give the same kid this worksheet inside of your classroom and it might take them maybe 10 to 15 minutes, but if they're trying to do it at home, it's a half an hour to 45 minutes because their meds have worn off or they're not in the same environment as they were at school. So it's not always like, oh no, the teacher doesn't understand the kid. That's not always what's in place. A lot of teachers are very surprised to find out what they have seen a kid do over and over again in their classroom they're actually not able to do outside of their classroom.
[00:17:42] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:17:43] Speaker A: So there could be a lot of factors in there. And most teachers are going to at least have the conversation with you. I'm not saying they're going to be like, sure, no problem, let's just reduce their vote. I'm not saying that that's going to be an uphill battle, but most teachers are at least going to welcome the conversation.
[00:18:02] Speaker B: Right.
And I think the other thing too, to talk about a high school student, if they're in advanced courses like AP Psych, AP Math, APs, Chem, whatever it is, they might exceed that 120 minute limit because they're doing a class that has more rigor to it.
[00:18:20] Speaker A: That's right.
[00:18:22] Speaker B: So when they're picking their classes, I think parents also have to be aware that their homework load is going to be way different than if they're just in regular general high school class.
[00:18:34] Speaker A: And your child may be intellectually able to handle a very rigorous caseload. That does not mean it's best for their mental health.
And those courses will be there next semester.
And I can tell you from someone who has been down this path first hand, I can speak to this. I can speak to my high school course load, my freshman and sophomore course course load. In college, I did not have. Well, I did, I did have people looking out for me, but I wasn't listening.
You know, I had parents that said, yeah, so the amount of homework you're doing is ridiculous and it's going to come back to bite you.
And it did.
And it did.
So it's hard as a parent to advocate for your kid in that standpoint. And sometimes it is a matter of like, no, you're going to take two APs this semester, not three or four.
[00:19:42] Speaker B: Right.
[00:19:44] Speaker A: It's knowing your kid and having them know themselves.
[00:19:49] Speaker B: Correct.
[00:19:51] Speaker A: I have that conversation a lot with the kids I tend to work with here.
They're intellectually very advanced and their dyslexia And ADHD sometimes gets them, gets the better of them.
And a lot of times they have something like they feel like they have to prove by taking these really advanced classes.
And I would rather see them prove it in one AP class, all of them, than all of the AP class. Like, you don't have to prove you're smart. Okay, I know you're smart.
Now let's be, let's be wise. And that's kind of how I start to shift their thinking a little bit.
[00:20:34] Speaker B: Right.
Some things that can come into play with homework is like inflexible policies from like the district or the school, like where they kind of make a rule and the teachers have to stick with the rule.
But that is not always great for every student in every classroom.
Right. Because their rules are probably for a student that can sit for hours, who can read and write well, are organized.
And that doesn't really help students with learning disabilities or other outside school environment impacts.
[00:21:20] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:21:22] Speaker B: With those inflexible standards. Right, exactly.
[00:21:25] Speaker A: That. I mean, even think about access to the Internet at home.
[00:21:31] Speaker B: Right. Not everybody has it.
[00:21:33] Speaker A: Not everybody has that.
And there is this idea of like, more is more is more is more always. We even hear this with little ones who come to us and they're struggling to read in kindergarten, they're struggling in first grade. And what is the teacher's number one recommendation to them? You need to read more.
Hold the phone.
Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
No.
What we know is that's not always true. They're probably reading a ton and you are probably reading to your kid. A ton of more is not always better in an inflexible policy is very difficult to deal with.
[00:22:27] Speaker B: Right. Because it's not always, it's not always the same for every student.
Right, Correct. I mean, we gave some examples, but I mean, even, you know, some students may need to reread instructions multiple times. So their homework, instead of taking maybe 15 minutes, is taking 30 minutes now or an hour and that like they don't have free time. Then after school they don't. That mental energy after being in school all day and now doing homework for an hour, they're exhausted.
[00:23:03] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:23:03] Speaker B: And then they're overloaded. So they might not be regulated.
And then they can't sleep and then they have anxiousness thoughts because they're worried that they're not going to get a good grade.
And it kind of produces a cycle.
[00:23:17] Speaker A: Right. You know, and even well designed homework where you are kind of following the recommendations when you get into middle school and high school.
Okay.
The Rule here, by the way, for a 12th grader. Like, we're talking about 120 minutes a night total. Not per class.
[00:23:39] Speaker B: Right.
[00:23:40] Speaker A: Not per class. And that's what a lot of those teachers are not fully understanding either. Right. They're kind of in their silos. They're assigning what they're assigning and they're like, I don't understand what the problem is. I only gave them this one problem set to do. And it's like, oh, my.
[00:23:57] Speaker B: They also have five other classes that they actually have the same amount of time for. Yeah.
[00:24:03] Speaker A: And not.
You know. And by their nature, even a teenager with no disabilities and no impact on their executive functioning is still not developed.
[00:24:19] Speaker B: Correct.
[00:24:19] Speaker A: So they don't. Even. Your high flyers are still going to struggle with the where and when of it. All.
[00:24:30] Speaker B: Right.
[00:24:31] Speaker A: And that is appropriate for high schoolers. They should. They should have to understand how to balance. Like just.
We are not advocating for. Nobody gets any homework. That's not what we're saying.
But the reasonableness of what is in sign. And when we come up to an extremely inflexible piece policy on homework, this is where the problem really lies.
[00:25:00] Speaker B: Right.
[00:25:01] Speaker A: Like we're trying to make every kid fit into a very inflexible system.
[00:25:07] Speaker B: Right.
[00:25:08] Speaker A: That is not even designed for a typical developing kid.
[00:25:15] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:25:16] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:25:17] Speaker B: So homework. So there are some things we can do, though, to help students.
There could be tiered homework assignments so they can build those up to the time that they need to be doing homework. Maybe they do less questions than a peer. Or maybe they only do half an assignment, not the full assignment. Kind of just kind of depends on what the assignment is.
Or they can use assistive technology with it. Right. Maybe they can read the book and listen to it at the same time. So they're getting all the content the first time and then being able to write maybe their paragraph or whatever their homework is instead of having to reread it five times to get all the information in order to write the paragraph. Because that's a big difference.
[00:26:07] Speaker A: What I say to parents a lot when we're talking about assistive technology and how do we start to practice with things like text to speech or the opposite way around?
I do say let's start with a homework assignment that is very low stakes. Let's start with your least stressful subject and build up from there while we're learning how to use these things.
It is often.
It is often.
And I'm not saying this is great. It's. I wish it wasn't Often on the parents, but it is often on the parents to really take the reins back here a little bit and zoom out. Okay, what exactly is my kid supposed to be doing?
[00:26:54] Speaker B: Right.
[00:26:54] Speaker A: And how do I organize that for them at first?
[00:27:00] Speaker B: Correct.
[00:27:01] Speaker A: Always thinking about, I mean, you listeners know me by now, right? I'm always thinking about if I am going to step in and be a scaffold for my kid, what is my offering for that.
But often it is the parents that have to take the really like strong reign and say, no, this is what my kid is doing. And if that is going to lead to a poor grade, I guess that stinks.
I guess we're going to have to make our peace with that.
I wish that wasn't my advice here, but it kind of is.
[00:27:37] Speaker B: Right?
[00:27:39] Speaker A: You know, and sometimes, sometimes the teacher is seeing for the first time, like, oh man, actually this kid doesn't, doesn't get that. And now I actually do have to do something else as a teacher.
So I am inclined to let my kid kind of quote unquote, fail homework to really show that they're needing these supports. And that from an emotional standpoint. That stinks. Right? Right.
[00:28:10] Speaker B: That is not good feeling, let me tell you.
[00:28:12] Speaker A: Not good feeling. It stinks.
I, I hate that as a parent a lot. And, and it is really like at a deep conflict within my own self of like,
[00:28:27] Speaker B: I want to teach it to you because I know how to teach it.
[00:28:29] Speaker A: I know how to teach it.
[00:28:30] Speaker B: I know how to teach it.
[00:28:31] Speaker A: But.
And you better bet you, bud, I'm gonna do it and then I'm gonna get an A. Right? Like, I keep, I think I keep looking, you know, hey, where is my grade as a mom? Like, where is that A plus on that paper?
She was. I haven't gotten it yet, guys.
Oh, it's, it's driving me nuts.
You know, I think it is complex because it depends on your kids school and their individual teachers.
It is a tough nut to crack. And I wish my advice wasn't.
You have to take an even stronger role because I actually don't think that's the most healthy hat to put on with our parent, with our, with our kids.
[00:29:19] Speaker B: Right.
[00:29:20] Speaker A: It's tricky. I mean, Nicole and I were having a conversation earlier, just today off, you know, off the podcast, about how I think it, it extra stinks that we are practitioners and moms because when we see these things, you know, we want to put like both hats on at the same time.
And I think what's hardest for me is to not do that. Yeah. I think, you know, despite not getting my grade back for a while, I actually do think I'm a pretty good mom, and I know I'm a good practitioner, but when I try to play both roles, it bites me in the butt every time.
[00:30:04] Speaker B: Yeah. So all that to say, just watch how many minutes your student has of homework, and if it's not working, definitely have that conversation with the teacher. I think that's the. Communication is the most important part of our topic today, honestly.
[00:30:21] Speaker A: Definitely. You know, and we're here to help, too. If you are a listener and you're a parent of ours, these are the kinds of conversations I have with my parents A lot.
I get asked, what do you think about this? And what do you think about that? And I'm happy to consult on those kinds of things.
[00:30:43] Speaker B: I think all of us here do that, honestly.
[00:30:46] Speaker A: While. Yes, I think, unfortunately, the parent has a central role to play here, you're not playing it alone.
[00:30:54] Speaker B: Right.
So reach out to your supports.
[00:30:59] Speaker A: Reach out to your supports. For sure.
[00:31:01] Speaker B: So, Maggie, what's happening beyond dyslexia?
[00:31:04] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh.
It has been a really tough couple of weeks.
[00:31:10] Speaker B: Yes, it has.
[00:31:11] Speaker A: It has been a really tough couple of weeks.
Unfortunately, my outside of dyslexia is quite sad.
My grandmother did pass away.
Oh, I was not gonna cry.
I was not gonna cry, but she did pass, and we are missing her.
And we do have a major holiday coming up, and it will be the hard. It will be the first one without our matriarch. So we're sad.
[00:31:46] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:31:46] Speaker A: Yeah.
I was not gonna cry about this
[00:31:49] Speaker B: today,
[00:31:52] Speaker A: but it was pretty recent, so we're sad today.
[00:31:56] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, I understand.
[00:31:59] Speaker A: Yeah. What's going on with you, Nicole?
[00:32:03] Speaker B: Well, that's a very interesting question, I guess just trying to figure out the supports our son needs.
I don't know if we talked about that. We pulled him out of our school last because of many different reasons, but so we're finishing the year at home and then hopefully getting a new IEP next year and figuring out, like, where his skill level is, because it's not what we were expecting, and we're trying to process that as parents.
[00:32:43] Speaker A: Yeah, it is really hard. And I think one of the coolest things about doing this podcast and why I love it so much is we can really just be kind of raw with our listeners.
Yeah, we're practitioners, and we're also moms, and no one has this totally figured out. We've got a lot of resources and we've got a lot of ideas, but absolutely nobody has this all the way figured out.
[00:33:13] Speaker B: Correct.
[00:33:15] Speaker A: But we are, we are a support. So yeah, that's a, a little heavy outside of dyslexia for y' all today, but that is also our real lives and that is what we're about here. Correct.
But please follow us on social media and reach out if you have any questions or you would like us to discuss a topic. If you do like our show, be sure to follow and rate our show on your favorite podcast place player.
That is how we reach more listeners and we get to help more families. Thank you everybody.
[00:33:49] Speaker B: Thank you.
