Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hi, I'm Maggie.
[00:00:00] Speaker B: And I'm Nicole. Welcome to the DAC Dyslexia and Coffea oh My Gosh Podcast.
We are happy that you could join us. We're both moms and dyslexia interventionists who want to talk about our students and children. What dyslexia is, how it affects our kids, strategies to help and topics related to other learning disabilities will all be covered in this podcast. Parents are not alone and we want to give voice to the concerns and strength struggles we are all having. This is a safe place to learn more about how to help our children grow and succeed in school, in the world. Grab a cup of coffee. I need to get another one. And enjoy the conversation.
[00:00:40] Speaker A: Hi, everybody.
We are going to start today's episode like we do every single week, with our concept of the week.
The concept of the week is our opportunity as practitioners to kind of pull back the curtain and let everybody into an intervention session.
We like to talk about things that we would specifically be teaching our students or their parents.
And often our concept of the week are things that are a little bit tricky to define or that people kind of get wrong, including us teachers.
Today's episode is about general education.
And today's concept of the week is curriculum.
Okay. That is a term that is thrown out there a lot and often used interchangeably with the word program and or standards.
Actually, those are really, really different things. So we're going to go with curriculum today.
Curriculum, okay, is the subjects comprising a course of study in a class, like in, like in college or even in elementary school.
It is like, what subjects and specific subject matter are we covering? That is curriculum.
It is not a, like, prescribed program. You don't buy a curriculum in a box. You buy a program in a box that covers certain things.
But curriculum doesn't come in a box.
Right. It's like the end of the Grinch. Right.
[00:02:36] Speaker B: So welcome to episode 80. We are going to talk about general education, sometimes referred to as regular education. I think us people who've been around longer would say regular education because that was what we talked about all the time. And it's more commonly now referred to general education because.
[00:03:02] Speaker A: Yeah, I think. Right. Yeah. I think it's just like a term that has kind of evolved over time. And if we're thinking about like, regular population versus, like general population, kind of like a zooming out.
[00:03:16] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:03:17] Speaker A: Is that term anyone not in special education?
Right. Basically.
[00:03:27] Speaker B: So general education is the standard academic program designed for the majority of students in a school system.
It provides a foundational curriculum defined by state standards, such as the Common Core State Standards to ensure that students reach specific academic milestones at each grade level. Yes.
[00:03:52] Speaker A: So some kind of like key characteristics here circling back on curriculum. Right. The curriculum focuses on core subjects.
It includes mathematics, literature, science, social studies.
Our goal in general ed is to build a broad base of knowledge. What do the majority of kids need to know to move on and graduate from high school?
[00:04:23] Speaker B: The target audience is basically typically developing children, Though it is increasingly inclusive of students with disabilities who receive support through accommodations or maybe co teaching.
[00:04:38] Speaker A: Yes, you know, typically. Right. A typical delivery of gen ed in the elementary school is led by one teacher. In the classroom setting they're often kind of using a one size fits all kind of lesson.
Like here. Here is our lesson for today.
We're spraying wide.
[00:05:06] Speaker B: Yes. With our delivery and the goals aim to foster not only the academic schools, but critical thinking, social communication and personal growth for future success in work and life. Yeah.
[00:05:21] Speaker A: So how does it compare with special education?
Regular education follows a standardized model. Special education is tailored to individualized needs.
Regular education is open to all, I will say again, all students.
It is, at least in the United States, the right of any student to attend a free and appropriate public education.
It can be delivered in different ways, but regular education available to all.
Special education requires an evaluation and a documented disability.
[00:06:14] Speaker B: So the general education setting has specific curriculum that they have and that is defined by most states by state standards.
Many of the states have adopted the Common Core State standards and these standards define the academic skills that students should acquire for each grade level.
This is the free inappropriate public education against which a program of student who receives a special education is evaluated. So like they're looking at the standards to see where the student is and comparing.
Wisconsin is full formally has adopted the Common Core State standards for English language arts and mathematics and we did that in 2010.
But it is open for local districts how they implement them.
And so that's where I think people get a little confused because one school district has this curriculum and that school district has that curriculum and that school district has a third one because they can pick those based off of the standards and what they interpret the standards to be.
[00:07:39] Speaker A: That's right.
And this is where it all gets extremely muddy. Right. Like the standard is basically like this is the benchmark this kid has to these all kids have to meet by the end of second grade.
The curriculum is the agreed upon subject matter in effort to meet those standards. And then a program which is usually, I think, what people confuse the most with curriculum is like, what are we going to buy and implement to meet these standards and cover the curriculum?
And yeah, we have local control. So there is a federal level, there is a state level, and there is the local level.
And at each level there are key parties making different decisions.
So it is a.
It is kind of a muddy mess. And I understand why.
It is really often like misunderstood. How could it not be?
[00:08:56] Speaker B: Right. There's a lot of pieces to the puzzle.
[00:08:59] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:09:00] Speaker B: And hands in the pie. Is that the.
[00:09:03] Speaker A: Yeah, like.
Yeah, like. Like cooks in the kitchen.
[00:09:08] Speaker B: I don't know. Yeah.
[00:09:11] Speaker A: Yeah. I don't know. Like makers on the pie.
[00:09:13] Speaker B: I don't know.
[00:09:16] Speaker A: You know, I think we can kind of go through it. In Wisconsin, you know, we adopted the Common Core state standards in June 2010.
They do cover English language arts, math and literacy in history and social studies.
The implementation part. Right. So the Wisconsin Department of Public Education, they guide implementation with the local school districts kind of having the final say.
This is our school district's take on this based on these standards and then they are integrated into Wisconsin's overall vision. Right. So what happens in a classroom construct, in a classroom context is that this is what I'm teaching today. This is the lesson plan, this is what standard this lesson relates back to.
And this is how I'm going to get my kids to meet that standard.
[00:10:19] Speaker B: Correct.
Then we have to kind of jump to the next thing.
In 2001, the United States act of Congress under George Bush. W. Bush, I guess, because there's two Bushes.
[00:10:38] Speaker A: Yeah.
Not hw.
[00:10:40] Speaker B: Yeah.
No Child Left behind act was implied and that basically reauthorized the elementary and Secondary Education act and included Title 1 provisions. You know, so applying to disadvantaged students, like being able to get more support in schools. It mandated standards based education reform based on the premise that the setting high standards and establishing measurable goals could improve individual outcomes in education.
So to receive school funding from the federal government, US states had create and give assessments to all students at select grade levels.
This act did not set national standards achievement standards. Instead, each state got to develop its own standards.
[00:11:41] Speaker A: Yes. And this is where things went awry.
[00:11:46] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:11:49] Speaker A: Yeah. Here.
Here we're basically saying that we must have standards based education and that all students need to meet these standards.
And you get to decide each individual state and school district, by the way, you get to decide what standards those are going to be.
[00:12:10] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:12:11] Speaker A: And then we were surprised that we had a mess.
Yeah, it's hard because I think it's really important that we have standards and that the education that my children receive in Waukesha county, southeastern Wisconsin is the same quality as the education somebody receives in another state or in another area. But if we don't have agreement on what those standards are, it all becomes a real big mess.
[00:12:51] Speaker B: And it also, the same bill kind of emphasized annual testing in progress report cards and teacher qualifications.
So.
But it didn't again specific what test to use.
So that is where we also get into a little bit of a issue when we're trying to compare states or different things. Because not every state uses every standardized test.
[00:13:21] Speaker A: Correct. This is where the term highly qualified teacher came from too.
It was mandated that school district had to make sure that they were employing highly qualified teachers. And yet again, there was no, there was no standard set by the federal government on what they meant by highly qualified teacher.
[00:13:43] Speaker B: Right.
[00:13:44] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:13:45] Speaker B: Yeah.
And then again, to have that free appropriate public education.
Yes. For special education students, the IEP goal needed to align with the Common Core State standards, which they should show that that student is still being taught this standard.
But some students with disabilities are pretty severe and an IEP will reflect a more functional program.
So they're more loosely aligned with the Common Core standards.
[00:14:26] Speaker A: Exactly. Which there was not clear guidance given because what the standards are meant to say. Right. And kind of like the most common analogy is like by, when a child is, you know, five years old, they should in theory be able to jump like a two foot hurdle. Right. Okay. Yes. Most kids really should be able to do that.
[00:14:50] Speaker B: Right.
[00:14:50] Speaker A: That's the standard.
There are going to be a portion of the population who cannot do that for whatever reason.
We still say the standard is that two foot poll or bar.
But like what we're going to do to get that kid to be able to do that is that, that functional program.
But there was no clear guidance on like what that, what that meant.
[00:15:21] Speaker B: So that's why there's a lot of variety out there.
[00:15:24] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:15:25] Speaker B: On that aspect of it.
And then a lot of the students may be in like self contained programs.
[00:15:36] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:15:38] Speaker B: And so about 3% of students are allowed to take an alternate test.
But there has to be, the whole team has to agree on it. It's not like you can just say, well, they're not going to be able to do this, so we're going to do that. It's a big process to get to.
[00:15:58] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:15:59] Speaker B: And then they have to be in the most least restrictive environment.
So sometimes schools interpret that as. So maybe they're pulled for regular classroom time and they go to specials with their peers.
[00:16:19] Speaker A: Again with the lack of, like, real clear guidance. And then other people interpret that as no matter the need of this kid, they could be the most severe kid.
And regular ed peers means just regular ed peers. Like, they're stuck in a classroom all day with their regular peers, and they are not learning, and their peers are not learning.
And it's. It's definitely a mess.
And the emphasis on, like, testing, testing, testing, that is problematic in terms of how schools receive funding.
[00:16:59] Speaker B: Right. And so if your student is, let's say, not performing well on these tests, that decreases the entire bunch. Right. Because they get pushed together into this big pile of students, and then they might. That state might not get as much funding just because of how they're testing, depending on, you know, how many special ed children they have versus students that are in regular or general ed class. Yeah, you know.
[00:17:31] Speaker A: You know, it is interesting too.
You know, here in the United States, each state was allowed to kind of basically opt in or out, and there were definite funding consequences based on your choices.
Most states did opt in, including the state of Wisconsin, where we live.
States that never adopted these standards were Alaska, Nebraska, Texas, and Virginia. They never adopted these Common Core State standards at all.
And then there were several states who did adopt and then withdrew, including Arizona, Oklahoma, Indiana, South Carolina.
That was as of 2005.
It'll be.
It'll be interesting to see most. I mean, honestly, when you poll most educators, it is not the fact that there are standards that is like, the issue, truly, I think, like the Common Core State standards, if you actually read them and you understand what they are, there's a high bar.
And it is generally what. Like what most general education students should be able to achieve by those grade levels.
But because there was no one, really oversight at each level, and there's not clear guidance on what happens when we have special education students that can't meet all or some of these standards. There was also not a lot of credence given to, hey, if we have a kid who is general ed, there is no disability. We have proven there actually is no disability. Yet they are still not meeting these benchmarks. What do we do then other than not fund those schools? Because obviously the school itself then is the problem.
So there's a lot of conclusions that are jumped to.
[00:19:38] Speaker B: That.
[00:19:39] Speaker A: I think there's. I have yet to see enough evidence on the implementation side. I think, unfortunately, I'm, you know, pro having standards in place, but the who gets to decide and who was discluded from those decisions. Decisions is a big problem.
[00:20:05] Speaker B: So basically, the Standards are the goals or what the students should learn, but it's not the curriculum.
And so local school districts and teachers, they choose the textbooks and the teaching methods used to reach those goals.
[00:20:19] Speaker A: Correct.
[00:20:21] Speaker B: So. But there's so many curriculum out there and there's so many ways to teach things. Not everybody's getting the same.
[00:20:28] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:20:29] Speaker B: Thing.
[00:20:30] Speaker A: And the perennial problem of this is, this is.
This is America where we have local control.
And frankly, what my kids need to know in southeastern Wisconsin isn't a different than what they need to know. If they were living in Southern California, if they were living in New York City. There. There is some amount of.
Actually by region, there is different knowledge base.
So where is the balance of that?
You can see why people have a really strong reaction if you say no Child Left behind or Common Core State Standards.
There are a lot of people with an automatic, like, kind of reaction.
And you can kind of. You can see why it's all. It's a lot more murky than it is clear.
[00:21:26] Speaker B: Because comparing one student with another student in states that do different curriculum.
[00:21:32] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:21:32] Speaker B: It's really hard because they're not the same. So then they're at different points at different times of the year, and that can change.
[00:21:41] Speaker A: Yeah. And lots of different things. And also, I mean, it can do two things. It can be. It can make like. It can make a certain state look like they are doing better than they actually are, and it can make our nation look like it's doing much worse than it actually is, because there really actually isn't a. There isn't a clear guidance. So depending on what purpose someone has for pulling data and communicating data, they can kind of make it sound like we're totally circling the drain or, oh, this. This one thing is doing really, really good.
[00:22:23] Speaker B: Right.
[00:22:24] Speaker A: So.
[00:22:24] Speaker B: And it's really. You can't compare apples to pears.
[00:22:27] Speaker A: Correct.
[00:22:28] Speaker B: And that's kind of what they're trying to do.
[00:22:30] Speaker A: Exactly that.
[00:22:31] Speaker B: And that's why I think there's so much misunderstanding around it.
[00:22:35] Speaker A: Totally. Totally. You know, even for people in it.
[00:22:38] Speaker B: Correct.
Because they're looking. They're trying to look at the data, but they can't because it's the equal. Because unless every single school district across the nation does the same curriculum, how are you supposed to.
[00:22:55] Speaker A: You can't compare. Right.
[00:22:56] Speaker B: And that's not going to happen.
[00:22:57] Speaker A: It's not going to happen. And nor would it actually be appropriate in an American state.
And I don't think anybody would be happy with that choice.
[00:23:05] Speaker B: No, I agree. But. Yeah, then you can't really compare the data.
[00:23:09] Speaker A: Totally that.
So in other words, Nicole and I have solved nothing.
But, you know, I think on our end as parents and practitioners, it's just these are a lot of, like, context and thoughts that we have, and it is. It furthers the need for more advocacy, more awareness, more thoughts on the table, honestly.
So this is an episode, I think, that is a little unsatisfying because we have no answers for you, but we.
[00:23:45] Speaker B: Did kind of explain why when you look at data from one state to another, you can't really align it.
[00:23:51] Speaker A: Correct.
Correct.
[00:23:53] Speaker B: So, Maggie, what's happening beyond dyslexia?
[00:23:57] Speaker A: You know, I'm kind of getting excited. My kids are both in Scouts, and it is the Pinewood Derby coming up next weekend, so both of them have their cars, like, cut already. They went into grandpa's workshop last weekend and cut their little.
With his help, cut their little cars out. And this weekend is decorating time.
Definitely.
Millie is so exciting. Hers will be rainbow sparkles.
[00:24:32] Speaker B: Of course it will.
[00:24:32] Speaker A: Of course it will.
Yeah. And Aidan made his is shaped like a big pick eraser, and he's calling it the E Racer.
[00:24:44] Speaker B: Oh, that is so cool. Which.
[00:24:47] Speaker A: Be still by heart. Yes. He made it loud. I am so proud.
You know how I love a play on words.
So be still my heart. I'm excited to watch them finish on this weekend and then race them next weekend.
[00:25:03] Speaker B: How fun.
[00:25:04] Speaker A: Yes. What is going on with you, Nicole?
[00:25:06] Speaker B: Yeah, what is going on with me?
I think it's been a really interesting winter.
I am so ready for the warmer weather that is coming up.
Our family has been sick for quite a bit of time, and so I'm waiting to be outside in the fresh air this weekend. And even if it's just sitting out for a little while, taking a walk, doing anything, I actually saw baby birds out the other day, and I was like, yes, that's a good sign.
It is almost done.
[00:25:52] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, thank you, everybody, for listening. Please follow us on social media and reach out if you have any questions or you would like us to discuss a topic. If you do like our show, be sure to follow us and. And give us a rating on your favorite podcast player. Please, please, please. Those ratings are really honestly how we reach more listeners and we get to help our families. So thank you, everybody.
[00:26:16] Speaker B: Thank you.
