Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hi, I'm Maggie.
[00:00:01] Speaker B: And I'm Nicole. Welcome to the DAC Dyslexia in Coffee Podcast. We're so happy you could join us. We're both moms and dyslexia interventionists who want to talk about our students and children.
What dyslexia is, how it affects our kids, strategies to help and topics related to other learning disabilities will also be covered in this podcast. Parents are not alone, and we want to give voice to the concerns and struggles we are all having. This is a safe place to learn more about how to help our children grow and succeed in school, in the world. Grab a cup of coffee and enjoy the conversation.
[00:00:33] Speaker A: Hi, everybody. Welcome to episode 96 of Dyslexia and Coffee Podcast.
Today we are going to start our episode just like we do every single time, with the concept of the week.
The concept of the week is really our opportunity as practitioners to kind of pull back that curtain a little bit and. And let everybody into an intervention session. So we like to explicitly teach concepts that we would either talk about directly to our students or with their families.
And so today's concept of the week is actually kind of a twofer.
Buy one, get one today, and they're both free.
So it's tantrums versus meltdowns.
They may sound and even look like they're the same thing, but tantrums are actually very different from meltdowns. Kids can often control tantrums. Right. It's almost like a choice.
Meltdowns are absolutely beyond their control.
The causes are usually different, too.
All right, so, for example, meltdowns often happen when kids are overstimulated and feeling overwhelmed, where tantrums happen when the kid wants something. Right. Or is frustrated.
[00:02:04] Speaker B: So very different.
[00:02:05] Speaker A: They are very different. Even though they can look the same, they're actually different.
[00:02:16] Speaker B: So episode 96 is Tantrums and meltdowns and older children.
Yes, here we go.
[00:02:23] Speaker A: It does happen.
[00:02:25] Speaker B: It does happen.
So it's common for young kids to have temper tantrums. Right. We all. They can't get the candy they want their way.
But usually by age 8 or 9, tantrums have kind of of tapered off for most kids.
[00:02:42] Speaker A: Yes.
But not all.
[00:02:44] Speaker B: But not all.
[00:02:45] Speaker A: But not all.
[00:02:46] Speaker B: Not all.
[00:02:47] Speaker A: And there are some developmental reasons for this.
[00:02:50] Speaker B: Right.
[00:02:52] Speaker A: You know, sometimes they have difficulty with learning or behavior,
[00:02:57] Speaker B: or they have trouble managing their emotions.
[00:03:00] Speaker A: Yeah.
Times of extreme stress. Sometimes you have a child who those tantrums have disappeared or really tapered off, and then a stressful event happens, and then, boom, we're right back in it.
[00:03:22] Speaker B: Exactly.
Also, they can be due to anxiety.
Yeah. They just work themselves up so much
[00:03:34] Speaker A: and it comes out, you know, either developmentally appropriate anxiety or an actual anxiety disorder.
[00:03:43] Speaker B: Correct.
[00:03:43] Speaker A: Right. So even just like the experience of anxiety, the regular, normal.
Right.
I just. Anxiety is a normal body process that happens to everybody.
So it doesn't have to just be the disordered anxiety that causes tantrums.
[00:04:02] Speaker B: Correct.
And language. Right. Not being able to express your needs or feelings, that's gonna definitely impact how they behave.
[00:04:13] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:04:16] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:04:16] Speaker A: And physical pain.
If a child is in physical pain or even, even an adult. I just was speaking to a friend recently who, you know, their family member had a very intense surgery and is having difficulty with recovering. And, you know, it's looking like lashing out and like tantrum type behavior in this person who is. It's so out of. It's so, so, so out of character. So, like, this can happen to anybody at any time.
[00:04:56] Speaker B: Right.
So what to do for these things, it really depends on the cause of the tantrums.
[00:05:03] Speaker A: Right.
[00:05:04] Speaker B: To prevent tantrums, you know, be clear and consistent with expectations, especially in children developmentally wise, if they know what's expected and they have an easier time.
[00:05:20] Speaker A: Yes, yes. Right. It doesn't mean, you know, I guess I feel like a broken record too here, where I'm like, okay, when we have these clear expectations and we have these, like, rules and guardrails to kids, it is absolutely developmentally appropriate. It doesn't mean that your kid is going to be like, thank you, mom. Boy, I love it so much when you say no to me.
Don't let me have that candy for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. Like, thank you so much.
That's.
[00:05:47] Speaker B: That's not it.
[00:05:48] Speaker A: That's never.
But if you have those children, please reach out to me.
I would love to be experiencing that. But no, having clear boundaries and clear, consistent expectations is not going to lead your kid to be like, mom, you're the best.
They will push back. It just might not be a tantrum. Right? Yeah.
[00:06:15] Speaker B: If it's like something physical or something like struggling with homework, break it into chunks.
Make sure there's brain breaks. Anything to help them kind of not get overly frustrated by just continuing to do the same thing.
[00:06:35] Speaker A: Exactly.
The more work that we can do to prevent and reduce the severity of something like a tantrum, the better off everybody is. It's not that we're trying to avoid. We're not saying, never mind, buddy, don't do your homework. We're saying, okay, you're gonna do two problems Take a second, come back.
[00:06:59] Speaker B: Do two more.
[00:07:00] Speaker A: Take a second, come back.
We're just adjusting the way things are happening. We're not relaxing expectations and letting them out of it.
[00:07:11] Speaker B: Correct.
[00:07:12] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:07:13] Speaker B: Some things you can do is agree on, like, a frustration signal, like, maybe before anybody is frustrated.
[00:07:20] Speaker A: Absolutely. This is not during. Not during. All of this is when we're calm.
[00:07:26] Speaker B: Calm.
[00:07:27] Speaker A: And things are generally good or as calm as they get.
[00:07:32] Speaker B: Yes.
And that's when you talk to your child about, okay, you're getting frustrated.
Can you give me a single, like, pull on my earlobe if I'm in public or if I'm at home? Maybe even say it out loud. Right?
[00:07:47] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:07:48] Speaker B: And then try to figure out what you would do in that situation ahead of time.
[00:07:52] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:07:54] Speaker B: So that you can decrease the frustration level right away.
[00:07:57] Speaker A: Exactly.
You know, it.
That really can go a long way.
And we're trying that at home. It's not always successful, but it has helped.
[00:08:14] Speaker B: That's good.
[00:08:14] Speaker A: You know, assigning a calm space.
Right. So applying. Finding a place in your home that can be a designated calm space. It doesn't have to be fancy.
You know, it could just be a chair that you. Your kid really likes to sit in.
You know, this is a space for calming down or just being calm. It's not a punishment space. So we're not like, you're in timeout. You have to sit with your nose against the wall.
You know, your child can go there and take a break when they see that frustration signal. Or just as a good old preventative measure.
[00:08:57] Speaker B: Right.
[00:08:58] Speaker A: You know, you need to kind of remind your child that there is a place to go down.
You know, for my son, that's like his.
My son has bunk beds and, like, his bottom bunk, sometimes he will, like, hang a, like, blanket.
[00:09:13] Speaker B: Oh, yeah.
[00:09:14] Speaker A: Down from his top bunk.
Because it's almost like a.
I don't know, not like the traditional bunk setup. So it almost feels like kind of like a tent or a den when he does that. And it's good. It's kind of where he goes and prefers to listen to his music or do something like that.
And I think it's really important to establish that.
[00:09:38] Speaker B: Correct.
And sometimes you just can't stop the tantrum from happening.
So when it's done, trying to figure out what caused it will help you avoid it the next time.
[00:09:51] Speaker A: Yes. Yes.
[00:09:52] Speaker B: Because that's a thing.
[00:09:54] Speaker A: Right? I mean. Yeah, we're just. We're not gonna be able to prevent these things from happening 100% of the time. That's if we're still dealing with tantrums at 8, 9, 10, 11.
We're probably still going to be dealing with them even into the teenage years. That's the real truth and reality of it.
You know,
[00:10:20] Speaker B: expectations. But also acknowledging your children's feelings. Like, I know you're angry with me because I asked you to turn off the video game. I get mad too when I have to stop doing something fun. But sometimes you gotta stop doing something fun, unfortunately.
[00:10:38] Speaker A: Right. That's just the way it is, you know, and keeping it at that.
Not trying to talk so much more.
That is. I need to be reminded of that often.
[00:10:51] Speaker B: Correct. Yeah, me too.
[00:10:52] Speaker A: That's probably my number one parent fall down is I want to like. Because we can't do that. And I want to talk to them all the time.
They don't want to hear it and it's not helpful.
[00:11:05] Speaker B: And sometimes you need just to ignore them because they're getting a reaction from you and that's what they want.
[00:11:12] Speaker A: Exactly.
[00:11:13] Speaker B: If you don't respond at all, sometimes that helps decrease that.
[00:11:20] Speaker A: Yep. Once you say it's like they're like trying to blow up a balloon and you've just took away all the air. Like can't really go anywhere. So it's not going to blow up.
[00:11:29] Speaker B: Not going anywhere.
[00:11:31] Speaker A: That's, I think actually really hard for me. That's a hard thing to do as a parent.
Completely ignore it.
[00:11:41] Speaker B: That one I can do sometimes, I
[00:11:43] Speaker A: think because one of mine tends to be like the button pusher and he does know which buttons to push that are gonna cause a reaction. Cause a reaction.
[00:11:57] Speaker B: Yeah, that makes sense.
And then obviously give your child praise about good behaviors.
Oh, you didn't yell at me. You did a good job calming down.
You did a good job telling me you were frustrated. Yes. That's just as important as the rest.
[00:12:18] Speaker A: Oh, even more so probably. Absolutely. You know, and I definitely giving those little rewards for things like that. And it could be verbal praise, it could be like a little sticker, you know?
[00:12:29] Speaker B: Yeah, it depends.
[00:12:30] Speaker A: It depends.
[00:12:31] Speaker B: Every kid rewards system is different.
[00:12:34] Speaker A: Absolutely. What, what makes them tick is different because they're human beings with different brains.
You know, while meltdowns are happening. Right. It can be really difficult to manage and understand what to do.
You know, meltdowns again are different than tantrums.
[00:12:53] Speaker B: Yeah. So everything we talked about so far is about tantrums. Now we're going to switch them.
[00:12:57] Speaker A: Because remember, a tantrum at its core is like a chosen behavior. Right. This is how we're choosing to display our emotions.
[00:13:09] Speaker B: Right. Well, meltones are more of your full body reaction because you're very, very overwhelmed.
[00:13:15] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:13:16] Speaker B: And usually you're not in control at all.
[00:13:19] Speaker A: Yeah. Often kids who truly, truly have meltdowns, they'll report really not actually like remembering or processing what's happening while they're doing it.
[00:13:31] Speaker B: So the first thing you need to know is their trigger. Right.
What's causing my kid to do this?
Lots of times it's a sensory overload.
Maybe it's pain, maybe it's loud noises.
Lots of bright lights. Being in a place where there's lots of activity going around. Those are all big things that can cause the sensory overload.
[00:13:56] Speaker A: Yep, absolutely.
You know, you may just start to notice things like your child gets anxious before school or it's the end of the day.
You know, maybe meltdowns happen right close to mealtimes or bedtime.
You know, hunger or fatigue.
Maybe triggers.
You know, you may notice that there are just certain places where they happen. Maybe it's noisy places, maybe it's crowd, maybe. I mean, I've had a lot of kids that like, certain scent, like, with their nose. Scents are really.
[00:14:43] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:14:43] Speaker A: They really can be a trigger. And it's.
It may surprise you when you kind of figure out some of those things, like, oh, oh, that's.
[00:14:54] Speaker B: That's your trigger.
[00:14:55] Speaker A: That's.
[00:14:55] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:14:56] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:14:57] Speaker B: All right.
[00:14:59] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:15:03] Speaker B: If you catch signs early enough, you might be able to help your child calm down before the full meltdown happens.
So some warning signs, like, maybe your child is having trouble thinking clearly, making decisions, responding to your questions.
Maybe they start thinking or repeating their thoughts or questions over and over again. Oh, yeah, they're starting to refuse to follow directions.
[00:15:31] Speaker A: Yes. Or like they have that appearance. Like you're giving them a direction and they're not doing it.
And sometimes it, like, looks like a refusal. And it might actually just be their body. Like, can't process it. Can't process it right now.
[00:15:48] Speaker B: Or let's say they're. They have just trying to shut out noises by holding their ears or they close their eyes or.
[00:15:55] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:15:56] Speaker B: They're trying to run away from something that's loud.
[00:15:59] Speaker A: Yep. Yep. Or just like, they kind of know they're getting in trouble and they want to avoid it. They're like, peace out. Bye.
[00:16:06] Speaker B: They start running, they might start complaining about, like, physical things like dizziness or their heart is pounding hard.
[00:16:15] Speaker A: Yep, yep.
You know, more moving around. Right. Their body all of a sudden can't sit still. Can't sit still. And when you know your kid, you can kind of tell when it's.
When it is a purposeful kind of restlessness and when it's not. Not like there is a. There is a difference.
[00:16:45] Speaker B: Yeah.
So you can try to distract from the trigger. You know, try to help them, like maybe pull out something like an earphones or something like that. Or distract them with a different task or activity.
You know, just remember to be patient because.
Just because.
[00:17:10] Speaker A: Right. You know, and don't expect like, oh, you're gonna pull out those earphones, and then your child is gonna be like, yeah, that's a great idea. I'm gonna put a bud meltdown over.
[00:17:20] Speaker B: Right?
[00:17:20] Speaker A: Nope, that's not how it's going to work. At least not at first.
[00:17:27] Speaker B: Right. And remember to use short, concrete sentences, because then they don't need to make decisions. You're not using their cognitive load so that they can focus on calming down their body.
[00:17:40] Speaker A: Yeah. Your kid is not making decisions during this time.
You are giving.
Put on your headphones, sit down, take a breath.
No, you cannot do that. Yes, you can do that, but you're not. You're not giving them choices here. They can't do it.
[00:18:00] Speaker B: So let's say we can't stop the meltdown. What do we do next?
In the middle of one.
[00:18:07] Speaker A: In the middle of one.
My least favorite place to be.
You know, when your child is screaming and throwing things, it may feel like an emergency, and your own body inevitably is going to experience that as well.
You know, a meltdown is not just happening in a vacuum.
Right. Unless you are like the Dalai Lama, you can't help but have your own physiological response to something your kid is doing.
But just because it feels like an emergency doesn't mean it's an actual emergency.
So you really have to think about, okay, is my child or someone else going to be physically injured by what's going on right now?
[00:19:00] Speaker B: 8.
[00:19:02] Speaker A: It's sometimes difficult to assess that too, honestly.
[00:19:07] Speaker B: Yeah, it is.
[00:19:08] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:19:09] Speaker B: Be reassuring. You know, it does take trial and error to figure out if your child wants you to go away from them or give you a hug.
[00:19:18] Speaker A: And sometimes they want both at once because they are so out of control right now. They don't. They don't know.
[00:19:29] Speaker B: So, like. And making sure you keep your voice and your body language as calm as possible, which is very hard to do in those situations. But, you know, If you're out in public, this happens to us a lot.
You. You can try to move your child to a quieter space when they were younger. For us, that was a lot easier. I'm gonna Be very honest.
[00:19:55] Speaker A: Well, and I think that's exactly it. Right. Like we're talking about older kids here.
[00:19:59] Speaker B: Right.
But when you're older, you can't pick them up anymore.
[00:20:03] Speaker A: Right, Right.
[00:20:05] Speaker B: So sometimes just moving them to the side, just have people go around them, try to be the barrier for them.
[00:20:15] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:20:16] Speaker B: Unfortunately that's kind of what happens a lot.
[00:20:19] Speaker A: Yeah. And it, it stinks.
And it stinks to be in that position. But that's the best you can do in that moment. Like almost create a bubble.
Right.
For your kid and for you.
You know, if you're at home, often it's a little bit easier to establish a calming spot or somewhere that's like a safety net.
But it's not always possible to move your children. And sometimes, sometimes it is up to the others in the environment to move away. I mean, sometimes with these public tantrums or meltdowns, sometimes people will naturally kind of step away.
[00:21:14] Speaker B: Sometimes they think they're helpful by coming closer.
[00:21:18] Speaker A: Sometimes people are going to try to approach you and it's often well meaning, but not often helpful.
And it can be frustrating. I do think.
I mean, I have noticed more in the last few years of just kind of observing other older kids having meltdowns. I mean this used to be just my routine world. I was a high school special ed teacher. We did so many community outings and I would have those students who were large, adult size, but still teenagers and they would have tantrums or meltdowns. And I used to get a lot of like interference from well meaning members of the public who just thought they could swoop in.
And after kind of observing the last couple years, I think there is a bit better understanding of what could be going on. And I've also noticed people kind of coming to a conclusion of like, oh, that person maybe can't help it, versus I used to get a lot of like, what do you mean they can't help it? Or just kind of that like very misunderstood.
Like I, I think we are getting somewhere with a public understanding of what could be going on. Right. For the student. Which gives me some hope.
[00:22:57] Speaker B: Yeah.
And another thing too, like if you're in your own space and you have control of the lights, you can turn them down, turn off the tv, try not to like be on top of the child, letting them calm down.
And that also can really help standing
[00:23:16] Speaker A: away from the doorway.
It's amazing what just a few inches will do, honestly.
[00:23:24] Speaker B: And start thinking, you know, how to re engage with your child. After the meltdown, you might have to leave the shopping trip.
[00:23:32] Speaker A: Yep, done that. Oh, yeah. Yep. Same, same. Well, that outing is over.
[00:23:38] Speaker B: Yep, yep, yep.
That outing has not gone well.
[00:23:43] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:23:44] Speaker B: There's certain stores that Even now my 15 year old cannot go into because it's just too busy, too loud, too much.
[00:23:52] Speaker A: It's too much.
[00:23:53] Speaker B: Learned to not take her to those stores.
[00:23:55] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:23:57] Speaker B: But it took a while to figure that out.
[00:23:59] Speaker A: Right, Right.
You know, and just kind of like that, that aftercare. Right.
Taking the time to recover for both your child and you, you know, not skipping that step too.
Right.
Those meltdowns especially, they are physically exhausting for your child. The adrenaline that is pumping through your child when it, when they are in a full meltdown, it is flooding their body.
So they will be exhausted afterwards.
[00:24:43] Speaker B: Yep.
And then, so you take your time to recover and then maybe talk about what happened, see if you can figure out what triggered it.
Talk about, you know, that they're not in trouble. That, you know, be reassuring, stay brief, you know, that's the main thing.
[00:25:06] Speaker A: And then 85% less.
[00:25:10] Speaker B: And then just make sure that, you know, your child understands that you're there for them and maybe make an action plan for next time.
[00:25:23] Speaker A: Well, and exactly that, you know, and just, you know, I've kind of started, and of course, a true teacher that I am, I've kind of started with my, with my kids, like when we have this kind of true meltdown, you know. Okay, what, what did we learn?
You know, what was our one little takeaway here? Okay.
It's a learning opportunity and it's building towards a meltdown or reduction in meltdowns over time. That's our goal for everybody. Because they're not fun for your kid either. No, no, they don't like it either.
If they could help it, they wouldn't be doing it. Honestly, with meltdowns, tantrums are a different story.
[00:26:10] Speaker B: Right?
[00:26:11] Speaker A: Tantrums. You can't give them what they want.
[00:26:16] Speaker B: So, Maggie, what's happening beyond dyslexia?
[00:26:19] Speaker A: Oh, my goodness. I can't believe it is the time of year that it is. But we are going to fireworks tonight and I'm kind of excited, actually. It feels, you know, fireworks feel fun and they are fun. It's kind of cool. I'm kind of getting into the America 250.
[00:26:40] Speaker B: Oh yeah.
[00:26:40] Speaker A: Spirits. I think it's really kind of fun that our nation's 250 years old and we get to kind of be alive and a part of a bigger celebration, you know, even if you don't agree with the direction that our country is going in or this or that. Like, I think it just really, it's a fun reminder that, like, I do feel very lucky to live where I live and have the freedoms that I. I do have. And it's a good opportunity to learn a little bit about our nation and where we have been and where we could go. So I'm kind of just embracing it. I'm excited for fireworks, and I think it should be a good time. I think it's supposed to be kind of chilly. We're going tonight and I do think it's supposed to be kind of chilly.
It's been a little bit of a weird weather June for us in Wisconsin.
[00:27:36] Speaker B: Yeah. We've had more tornadoes.
[00:27:38] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:27:39] Speaker B: This year already than we normally have it a whole year.
[00:27:42] Speaker A: Yeah. And like, we had them early.
[00:27:44] Speaker B: Yeah. And they're still coming.
[00:27:46] Speaker A: And they're still coming. And it's been like a couple of kind of hot days, mostly. Pretty cool. Not. I'm not complaining. I think we've had some amazing.
[00:27:57] Speaker B: Yeah, we've had some nice weather.
[00:27:58] Speaker A: Temperatures and not as humid as it can be until next week.
What's happening for you, Nicole?
[00:28:08] Speaker B: Yeah, I think so. I know a few episodes ago we talked about, you know, deciding to grow our own inside garden.
[00:28:18] Speaker A: Oh, boy.
[00:28:20] Speaker B: So the lettuce survived.
[00:28:23] Speaker A: Okay. All right.
[00:28:24] Speaker B: That's good.
[00:28:24] Speaker A: That's a good start.
[00:28:26] Speaker B: Everything else died.
[00:28:27] Speaker A: Okay. That's. That's okay. That's okay. Listen, you gotta start somewhere.
It's okay. It's okay. Life happens. And the cool thing about those little indoor gardens is, like, okay, so you scrap it and you start again, I guess. So it's not a big deal. It's okay.
It's okay.
[00:28:47] Speaker B: I'll be asking Maggie how to not do that again probably next episode. Episode? No.
[00:28:55] Speaker A: Dyslexia, Coffee and plants.
Which is funny because actually, if you know me, I don't know that much about plants. So I know it's apparently more than me. Oh, gosh, I don't. My six year old takes care of them.
Well, please, everybody, please follow us on social media and reach out if you have any questions or you would like us to discuss.
[00:29:18] Speaker B: Discuss a topic.
[00:29:19] Speaker A: If you do like our show, be sure to follow and rate our show on your favorite podcast players. This is how we reach more families and we gain more listeners. So thank you, everybody.
[00:29:29] Speaker B: Thank you.
