Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hi, I'm Maggie.
[00:00:01] Speaker B: And I'm Nicole. Welcome to the DAC Dyslexia and Coffee Podcast. We're so happy you could join us. We're both moms and dyslexia interventionists who want to talk about our students and children.
What dyslexia is, how it affects our kids, strategies to help and topics related to other learning disabilities will all be covered in this podcast. Parents are not alone, and we want to give a voice to the concerns and struggles we are all having.
This is a safe place to learn more about how to help our children grow and succeed in school, in the world. Grab a cup of coffee and enjoy the conversation.
[00:00:35] Speaker A: Hi, everybody.
We are going to start this episode like we do every week with the concept of the week. So the concept of the week is our opportunity as practitioners to kind of peel back the curtain a little bit and let everyone into an intervention session. We like to talk about things that either we would be teaching explicitly to our students or we would be talking to their parents about some kind of little nugget of information that directly relates to what it is we do.
Today's concept of the week relates to this actually whole episode. Today's concept of the week is the International Dyslexia Association.
Not everyone knows, otherwise known as ida. So if you hear Nicole and I talk about ida, that's what we're talking about. We're talking about the International Dyslexia Association. It is a global nonprofit that works to ensure individuals with dyslexia receive evidence based instruction and support them their need to grow educationally personally.
And it recognizes it as a lifelong learning difference.
[00:01:47] Speaker B: So welcome to episode 67. We're going to talk about the dyslexia definition. The International Dyslexia association just changed the definition of dyslexia for the first time in a long, long time.
[00:02:03] Speaker A: 2002, I believe.
[00:02:05] Speaker B: Yeah, I think you are correct.
[00:02:07] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:02:07] Speaker B: And they just made the new definition this October of 2025 and they all voted it in. So we thought it would be interesting to kind of compare the two definitions and then talk about what the differences are and what we like and what.
[00:02:25] Speaker A: And how we have some feelings, everybody.
[00:02:31] Speaker B: So the.
[00:02:33] Speaker B: Previous definition was dyslexia is a specific learning disability that is neurobiological in origin. It's characterized by difficulty in accurately, accurate or fluent word recognition and by poor spelling or decoding skills.
These difficulties typically result from a deficit in the phonological component of language that is often unexpected in relation to a person's cognitive ability and.
[00:03:03] Speaker B: Provision of effective classroom instruction.
Secondary consequences may include problems in reading comprehension and reduce reading experiences that can impede the growth of vocabulary and the background knowledge.
[00:03:22] Speaker A: So the new definition officially adopted by the board of directors in October of this year.
Now it says dyslexia is a specific learning disability characterized by difficulties in word reading and or spelling that involve accuracy, speed, or both and vary depending on the orthography. These difficulties occur along a continuum of severity and persist even with instruction that is effective for the individual's peers.
The causes of dyslexia are complex and involve combinations of genetic, neurobiological and environmental influences that interact throughout development.
Underlying difficulties with phonological or morphological processing are common but not universal, and early oral language weaknesses often foreshadow literacy changes. Secondary consequences include reading comprehension problems and reduced reading and writing experience that can impede growth in language knowledge, written expression, and overall academic achievement.
Psychological well being and employment opportunities also may be effective. Although identification and targeted instruction are important at any age, language and literacy support before and during the early years of education is particularly effective.
[00:04:53] Speaker B: That's a mouthful.
[00:04:54] Speaker A: That is a mouthful.
[00:04:57] Speaker B: So that's a lot of information.
[00:05:01] Speaker B: We did find.
[00:05:08] Speaker B: A pretty good article that kind of compares the two definitions and.
[00:05:16] Speaker B: We thought we would break it down a little bit in that regard.
[00:05:24] Speaker B: I think the good thing is they both say they're neurobiological, which basically means it begins in the brain, which is what the research tells us, Right?
[00:05:34] Speaker A: Yes. In the new definition they do kind of include that like environmental influences, which is something that is heavily researched and has been out there for years.
[00:05:48] Speaker A: So I'm happy to see that inclusion there rights.
[00:05:57] Speaker B: So. And basically what they're saying because it's developmental too.
[00:06:04] Speaker B: You know.
[00:06:08] Speaker B: It'S still.
[00:06:11] Speaker B: Part of developmental growth.
[00:06:14] Speaker A: Exactly.
You know, the new definition also.
[00:06:19] Speaker A: Talks about effective reading instruction and that often dyslexia does persist even with effective reading instruction, which again, I think is something really important to address.
[00:06:40] Speaker A: My hope is that that also kind of stops a lot of the.
The icky, like we can just cure it.
[00:06:49] Speaker B: Right.
[00:06:49] Speaker A: Kind of stuff that is a little bit out there in the ether lately.
[00:06:55] Speaker A: It is a lifelong diagnosis and even with very effective instruction, some of these issues are going to persist. Lifelong.
[00:07:08] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:07:11] Speaker B: One of the interesting changes was like the first definition had that word recognition piece and now it says reading and spelling. I kind of do like that part that they pulled that spelling that it could be either or.
[00:07:24] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:07:25] Speaker B: Because we do see that with our students. Some are really, really good readers.
But then they cannot spell anything.
[00:07:33] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:07:33] Speaker B: So that is an important piece that we see in our center all the time.
[00:07:37] Speaker A: Agree.
[00:07:38] Speaker B: I really like that they did that.
[00:07:42] Speaker B: One of the pieces that I have a little bit of a.
[00:07:47] Speaker B: We want our students to be automatic, which means they can do it. But there's a lot more in the new definition about fluency, and I feel that that can be taken the wrong way because we find a lot that fluency becomes.
[00:08:05] Speaker B: The thing that people really want to see.
[00:08:08] Speaker A: Agree.
[00:08:09] Speaker B: And that is part of the new definition that I didn't really have.
[00:08:15] Speaker A: I agree. I have some pause there about the way we emphasize.
And just given.
[00:08:25] Speaker A: I'm of two minds, because truly.
[00:08:30] Speaker A: I believe that it belongs part of the definition because it is a major concern.
[00:08:37] Speaker B: Right.
[00:08:38] Speaker A: My fear, which I think is your same fear, Nicole, is the history of the kind of whole language balanced literacy approach putting so much emphasis on reading fluency, especially just running record running, record running, record word fluency.
Not even word fluency, honestly, just oral reading fluency was like the end all, be all. And to be honest, it was just the easiest thing for them to track.
[00:09:11] Speaker A: And research is shaky at best in older years.
[00:09:16] Speaker B: Right.
[00:09:17] Speaker A: And so I agree. I am a bit concerned about the emphasis and fluency, even though I believe it belongs as part of the definition.
[00:09:29] Speaker B: Right. I just think that.
[00:09:33] Speaker B: Some people just tag onto it too fast.
[00:09:35] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:09:35] Speaker B: You know, and then I feel that it could have been explained a little bit because for our students, sometimes they're not going to be as fluent as their peers. Ever.
[00:09:48] Speaker A: Right.
[00:09:48] Speaker B: And but for them, they're fluent.
So.
[00:09:53] Speaker A: Yeah, I agree. It's troublesome.
[00:09:55] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:09:56] Speaker A: I am struggling to process that part of that.
I do really like that they expand beyond just the phonology piece, the sound processing piece, because not all of my students with dyslexia do specifically struggle in that area.
[00:10:20] Speaker A: We know from research that it is often, but not always, especially in older kids, people who are diagnosed later.
So I really am very happy to see that they are including the morphology piece in there.
[00:10:37] Speaker B: I agree. Because we see that as a.
[00:10:42] Speaker B: Especially in our older students. That is so hard for them.
[00:10:44] Speaker A: It's so hard for them and it is so critical. And I am very pleased to see it part of the definition because I think it is going to push structured literacy advocates to be more explicit on the morphology instruction. And I agree that is needed and I'm happy to see that in there.
[00:11:04] Speaker B: Another thing that I really like is that they really shifted in the new definition away from iq because we've all been reading a bunch of research has come out that says IQ has nothing really related to dyslexia. And.
[00:11:26] Speaker B: The original diagnosis, you know, definition, it was confusing the way they.
[00:11:33] Speaker A: I agree, I agree. I mean, they kind of. In the old definition it says the struggle seemed unexpected and it was like unexpected related to.
Yeah.
[00:11:45] Speaker B: It wasn't really defined what that meant.
[00:11:47] Speaker A: Yeah, I agree. I mean, while the new definition is extremely wordy.
[00:11:53] Speaker B: Yes. At least it explains that. Yeah. It's not based on iq.
[00:11:57] Speaker A: It's not based on iq. And as we well know by now, dyslexia occurs across all places across.
[00:12:09] Speaker A: Iq.
It's not correlated.
And so I do like that it is not talking about.
[00:12:19] Speaker A: That gift or that gap anyway.
[00:12:22] Speaker B: Right.
[00:12:25] Speaker B: And I also like their new part where they still struggle even after evidence based teaching. Because I think people think when you're done, you're just fine.
[00:12:36] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:12:36] Speaker B: And our students will continue to struggle with certain things their entire lives.
[00:12:41] Speaker A: It perpetuates the myth of dyslexia as a cure.
[00:12:46] Speaker B: Correct.
[00:12:47] Speaker A: Yeah.
Great outcomes for people with dyslexia.
Way improved skill sets.
[00:12:55] Speaker A: But still.
[00:12:59] Speaker A: That underlying piece. Because it is neurobiological in nature.
[00:13:03] Speaker B: Right.
[00:13:05] Speaker A: And it does explicitly address the fact in the new definition that it applies across all disability levels. Correct. Which I am happy to see.
I know you personally have had a journey with that with your kids, so I'm happy to see on the behalf of all parents out there who had to fight for their kids on that. I'm very pleased that it says that right there.
I agree.
[00:13:36] Speaker B: I like that they kept comprehension and vocabulary concerns in there because both of those things are impacted.
[00:13:44] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:13:44] Speaker B: By literacy. So I think that was a very good thing that they kept.
[00:13:52] Speaker B: And then I do like that they expanded it to like school progress, confidence, emotionally well being. Because we see that. Right.
Anxiety is very high in students with dyslexia. And just being able to say that somewhere and show that somewhere is a.
[00:14:11] Speaker A: Good thing to have, I think it gives. I think it really gives that new definition a lot more power and shows the more all encompassing nature of dyslexia. Correct.
Actually, dyslexia is a whole lot. I mean, it does blow my mind a bit.
Even though it is a huge myth that the more I am interacting with public who is not in our world, the myth that persists, you know. Oh, that's like seeing letters upside down and backwards.
[00:14:48] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:14:50] Speaker A: No, one, that is a huge myth. And two, no, it is very all encompassing.
So I'm happy to see that specifically addressed.
[00:15:03] Speaker B: Exactly.
I also like in the ending where they say it really emphasizes that early identification and support or the old definition didn't even address.
Yeah, so, I mean, that's important. Right. Because we know the better outcomes come the earlier you start the intervention.
[00:15:25] Speaker A: Yeah, I absolutely agree.
I do like that. The new definition does explicitly state that intervention at any age should be done.
[00:15:41] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:15:41] Speaker A: Because that is also, I mean, still on our frequently asked questions list. It's still something I get asked a lot, like, well, you know, my kids in fifth grade. Is that kind of just too late? Like, is this just how it is now? Right, exactly. So, I mean, as someone with a background in high school special education, I'm happy to see that.
[00:16:07] Speaker A: Obviously, I think timing is really important, and I want as early as possible, but that is not an option for all kids, as I have seen over and over. So I'm happy that it explicitly says, no, no, we still intervene no matter when we find it. Correct.
[00:16:26] Speaker B: I also like too that they did add that it's, you know, it ranges mild to severe because it explicitly says that in the new definition, which.
[00:16:38] Speaker B: You know, sometimes explaining that to families is hard because they think it's only one or the other. You know, it's not just one thing.
And I think that that is definitely.
[00:16:53] Speaker A: Yeah. You know, and occurs across. And some symptoms in one child may appear very different and more severe. I mean, I have had students with severely impaired phonological systems, but some of their other language, like working memory was off the charts.
[00:17:22] Speaker B: Right.
[00:17:23] Speaker A: That is one way dyslexia could look. Yes, I agree. It could look the opposite of that.
And that's. It's actually still dyslexia.
So I'm. I am.
I have come around to it. I think I am a person who changes hard for. And I think I have to just admit that.
[00:17:43] Speaker A: I initially.
[00:17:47] Speaker A: Was not a fan.
[00:17:50] Speaker A: Of the new definition.
[00:17:54] Speaker B: I do.
[00:17:55] Speaker A: Did submit some comments when it was up for public comment.
[00:18:02] Speaker B: Yeah.
And I think.
I think it was just that concern that people were gonna just see one word, that one.
[00:18:10] Speaker A: Yeah, I agree. It is still a concern of mine. I think the wordiness in general of the new definition concerns me.
[00:18:19] Speaker B: Yeah. Because I mean, honestly, we understand the words in the definition. I think that's. I think one of my comments was, maybe you should define what some of the words are that you're using in the definition, because some people might not know them.
Like.
[00:18:35] Speaker B: I don't know, like, morphology.
[00:18:40] Speaker A: Well, yes. Right.
[00:18:41] Speaker B: You know what I mean?
[00:18:42] Speaker A: Like, that's not something that morphological is even how it occurs there. Right. So it's like.
[00:18:49] Speaker A: I do.
[00:18:52] Speaker A: Worry.
[00:18:54] Speaker A: About the Word choices they made and the length of.
The length of it is frankly insane.
[00:19:05] Speaker A: That's extremely lengthy definition that I do think either could be pared down and. Or at least appear reformatted in some places.
[00:19:23] Speaker B: Because it is.
[00:19:24] Speaker A: It's really not. It's like it just appears. Guys. Like.
Yeah. In a big text.
[00:19:29] Speaker B: Yep. Black text.
[00:19:30] Speaker A: Right. On IDA's website. And I. Guys.
[00:19:35] Speaker B: Yeah. Because the website is supposed to be for practitioners and families.
[00:19:41] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:19:41] Speaker B: So that's kind of my concern too. Right. Like not everybody is going to understand every word in there and then what does it actually mean and how does it impact their child. Right.
[00:19:58] Speaker A: You know, I think it's. It will be interesting to see how.
[00:20:04] Speaker A: The adoption of the new definition.
[00:20:10] Speaker A: Either changes or not changes things.
[00:20:13] Speaker B: Right.
[00:20:13] Speaker A: You know, I think something important to keep in mind is this is the International Dyslexia Association's definition of dyslexia, which holds a lot of weight. Don't get me wrong. IDA is a big deal.
They are a really big organization. They're probably like the loudest voice for people with dyslexia out there.
But it is not the definition that is in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual.
[00:20:42] Speaker B: Correct.
[00:20:43] Speaker A: Those two definitions are not the same.
Exactly. From a clinical perspective.
[00:20:52] Speaker A: The way we are.
[00:20:56] Speaker A: Analyzing the data to fit the DSM 5, that. That isn't necessarily changing.
[00:21:02] Speaker B: Right. They don't change that very often.
[00:21:05] Speaker A: They don't change that very.
[00:21:05] Speaker B: It's a big book and it.
[00:21:07] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:21:07] Speaker B: It has to go through a lot of revisions before it can even be submitted changed.
[00:21:13] Speaker A: And it's for a very different purpose. Right. This kind of definition is out there for families, practitioners school it.
[00:21:22] Speaker B: Right.
[00:21:22] Speaker A: It covers more ground than something like a diagnosis criteria.
[00:21:30] Speaker B: Right.
[00:21:31] Speaker A: So I think what is not changing here is the diagnostic criteria.
[00:21:36] Speaker B: Correct.
[00:21:36] Speaker A: Even though we are expanding this.
[00:21:41] Speaker B: I.
[00:21:41] Speaker A: Don'T know, umbrella, I guess tent.
[00:21:45] Speaker B: To.
[00:21:45] Speaker A: Include.
[00:21:47] Speaker A: More things, it will be interesting to see what implications if any this really does have on kind of what we do on the day to day.
[00:22:00] Speaker B: You know, community or systems that are in place already.
We don't know yet because they haven't changed it since 2002. So we don't know who's going to read it, what they're going to say about it, you know. So it's a very. Going to be an interesting journey to see.
[00:22:19] Speaker A: Agree.
[00:22:21] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:22:22] Speaker A: To be determined.
[00:22:23] Speaker B: To be determined, definitely.
[00:22:29] Speaker B: So Maggie, what's happening outside of dyslexia?
[00:22:32] Speaker A: Oh my goodness.
What is happening outside of dyslexia is we just had a birthday in the house.
So my son Turned eight.
[00:22:47] Speaker A: That just feels like that's a big number.
[00:22:51] Speaker B: It does.
[00:22:53] Speaker A: So far, it's a pretty good look on him, though. He has had a good week.
It has been a week. Probably just because it's the week of his birthday. I've been kind of looking at him and like, oh, wow, you really are stepping up in some areas that.
[00:23:12] Speaker A: You know, he's taking more responsibility for things, being able to independently do so many more tasks than he could even a couple of months ago.
So, yeah, it's kind of been one of those, like, okay, buddy.
[00:23:35] Speaker A: Yeah. That's what's going on with us. What's going on with you, Nicole?
[00:23:38] Speaker B: Yeah. So we have a birthday next week, too.
Oh, a big, big one. I know. She's becoming a teenager.
She's turning 13, but she's the best. I know. But she's turning 13.
[00:23:55] Speaker A: I know. Oh, I don't even.
Five years from now, you're gonna be like, oh, you're fine.
Right?
[00:24:02] Speaker B: You have to go through it. Yes.
[00:24:04] Speaker A: I'm just so happy that you get to do this before me.
[00:24:06] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:24:10] Speaker B: So it's kind of funny because she wanted her birthday to be at a Mary Kay place, which. Okay, I love that she is all about makeup and it is just so funny.
[00:24:24] Speaker B: And so that's what we're doing. Cupcakes and friends and makeovers.
[00:24:30] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh. She's gonna have the best time. She's just gonna.
She's gonna look amazing and feel amazing. She will happy.
[00:24:39] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think they'll have a lot of fun. But it's just really funny because all the feels, all the feels, you know, I want her to stay my baby forever.
[00:24:50] Speaker A: I know. Well, yeah, my 8 year old keeps telling me that, quote, as soon as possible, we will be moving to Australia.
[00:24:59] Speaker B: Why is he going to go to Australia?
[00:25:00] Speaker A: Because he is a very.
He is highly, highly interested in marine biology.
[00:25:08] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:25:09] Speaker A: And I guess that's a good place to go there. He specifically has the interest in Australia right now. So, yes, quote, as soon as possible.
[00:25:19] Speaker B: He'll have to get through college really fast. Yeah, well, since you just turned eight, guys.
[00:25:28] Speaker B: Oh, there's that, there's that, there's that.
[00:25:34] Speaker A: Everybody, please, thank you for listening and please follow us on social media. Reach out if you have any questions or would like us to discuss a topic. If you do like our show, be sure to follow and rate us on your favorite podcast player. This is how we reach our listeners and we get to help more families. Thank you, everybody.
[00:25:51] Speaker B: Thank you.
