Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hi, I'm Maggie.
[00:00:01] Speaker B: I'm Nicole. Welcome to the DAC Dyslexia in Coffee Podcast. We're so happy you could join us. We're both moms and dyslexia interventionists who want to talk about our students and children. What dyslexia is, how it affects our kids, strategies to help and topics related to other learning disabilities will all be covered in this podcast.
Parents are not alone, and we want to give voice to the concerns and struggles we are all having. This is a safe place to learn more about how to help our children grow and succeed in school and in the world. Grab a cup of coffee and enjoy the conversation.
[00:00:35] Speaker A: Hi, everybody. Welcome to episode 111 of Dyslexia and Coffee Podcast. We're going to start today's episode like we do every single episode, and that is with the concept of the week.
So the concept of the week is our opportunity as practitioners to kind of pull back the curtain a little bit and let everyone into an intervention session. So we really like to talk about things that either we would be directly teaching to our students or things that we would be teaching their families or caregivers about.
So today's concept of the week is the term neurodivergent.
This is a term that I think is kind of relatively new.
It is something that in recent studies has come up a lot.
The idea of being so neurodivergent simply means that your brain processes information, learns or behaves differently from what society considers typical or the norm.
This could apply to really any of the kind of isms we like to talk about. Right? So it could apply to dyslexia, adhd, autism, really anything that any thing where your brain is processing information or learning differently than what is considered the norm.
What is interesting about this term, it is something I do like to use because sometimes when we're talking about kids with learning differences, it is a way to kind of spread the bucket a little bit. Right. And talk in more broader terms.
But what is interesting is this is. This is a term that's come out of a lot of.
Come under fire by a lot of researchers lately or people really that interpret research. And the reason is, is because this does not really. It doesn't cover one thing, neurodivergence or like, you know, neuro atypical or neurotypical.
It's not very. It's not precise.
And so when they. When there's a study about a neurodivergent population and they're trying to look at something in a diagnostic way or they're trying to determine does this intervention help or not.
If you're really not being specific about who this population actually is, it muddies the water and it makes it more difficult to say one way or the other. So it's kind of interesting because it is. It's definitely a term I do use in conversational speech when I'm talking about a very broad population. I might use neurodivergent, but it was. It's given me something to think about lately about when is it important to be very specific about a population you're talking about and when can you speak more broadly?
[00:03:50] Speaker B: Correct.
[00:03:51] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:03:52] Speaker B: Yeah.
So welcome to episode 111.
So we're going to talk about new initial research on dyslexia.
So because it's new and initial, it's not as rigorously tested as you would want research to be.
But because it's new and it's interesting, we thought we would still talk about it because we still should talk about even the smaller studies where they're finding some interesting things.
[00:04:26] Speaker A: Yeah. And, yeah, I think this is going to be a fun episode because it really just is.
This is interesting.
There is most of these studies that we're going to talk about today. There has not been enough time or replication for us to have our own opinion about.
[00:04:44] Speaker B: Correct.
[00:04:45] Speaker A: So it really is just going to be kind of a mishmash of, hey, these are some things being looked into.
[00:04:51] Speaker B: Correct.
Our first one, interestingly enough, came from the University of Houston, and they reviewed four decades of genetics research and categorized 175 genes currently known to be associated with reading difficulties.
And then they ended up sorting them into two fun, functionally discrete groups. Right.
So what they really came about, their takeaway with looking at this data was that dyslexia looks less like a product of one faulty gene and more of a result of a broader brain network development, since the relevant genes were across species and expressed among multiple brain regions.
So that really supports the view that dyslexia is part of a wider neurodevelopmental spectrum rather than one isolated condition, which makes sense to us in a lot of ways, because when we say one student with dyslexia looks like one student with dyslexia, well, this makes a lot of sense to us because if there's that many genes, there's that many variations of what dyslexia can look like.
[00:06:19] Speaker A: Exactly.
You know, and I think it does.
It is.
It fits with the IDA updated definition definition too, where really, more than anything else, we've actually broadened the Definition of dyslexia more than we have narrowed it.
[00:06:40] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:06:41] Speaker A: And I. I think this, you know, new initial. Right. Has not been replicated yet, but it. It does make sense to me as a practitioner, for sure. Yes. And I. It'll be interesting to see what happens more with this kind of research in the future.
[00:07:07] Speaker B: Right. Will they expand the definition then? Will they add more things to it? Because we definitely see things outside of the definition pretty commonly.
[00:07:18] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:07:19] Speaker B: Yes. That is the current definition, I should say.
And so I'm wondering if this will help bring those other pieces.
Right.
[00:07:30] Speaker A: Yeah, I agree. It's kind of. It's interesting. Like, I think it. It mirrors a lot of the work being done with autism.
Even like.
Like five to ten years ago with autism. You know, like, I feel like this is kind of going in that same general direction, which I do think is quite interesting.
And I think we're going to find.
I mean, it makes sense to me. Like, dyslexia is complex.
[00:08:03] Speaker B: Correct.
[00:08:04] Speaker A: And it affects people differently.
[00:08:06] Speaker B: It does.
[00:08:08] Speaker A: And yet exists across all languages and all.
It's universal. So it's interesting.
[00:08:14] Speaker B: It is very interesting. Yeah.
So this next one really was kind of fascinating to me.
So researchers working in AI, so artificial intelligence, they've done a lot of research on the lab modeled in the past all healthy reading populations, looking at vision language AI model to simulate dyslexia reading patterns for the first time.
So their goal was to identify fonts and design changes that would help students with dyslexia.
It's very novel approach because they really had only looked at healthy reading populations in the past.
And what they found in the research was kind of interesting that the AI had more difficulty when they were simulating dyslexic reading patterns than when they were doing healthy. They call them healthy reading populations.
So even AI was impacted by this, which I think was very interesting.
[00:09:32] Speaker A: That is. I mean, that is really interesting. And I think, you know, the deeper level of, like, yes, the. The input still there is like the language piece. So. So this makes sense to me. It is interesting too. I think even the research around different fonts and different visual patterns, things that, you know, for some students with dyslexia, the use of those special fonts they find helpful.
For some students with dyslexia, not at all.
And there's just been.
I think there's been a lot of research attempts to find something that helps serve this population. And it's certainly worth continuing the research. I mean, honestly, my real take is, well, if that font helps some of this Population, then great.
We should use that for them.
It's not enough to just make it standard across the board.
Exactly. And it's not a cure, it's. It's not a magic wand, but something that can make it even a little bit easier, a little bit more accessible is.
Is great. I will. I will take that all. So it's going to be interesting to see.
[00:10:58] Speaker B: I wonder what their next.
Like, yeah, I wonder what that's leading to. Right, yeah, like, because, I mean, why did they do that? And why are they going to. Like, what would they want to know next?
[00:11:10] Speaker A: Yeah, I agree. That'll be.
That'll be interesting to see.
Yeah. This one worries me just a tad on the very heavy leaning in on like the, the visual representation piece where.
I don't know if this is where it's going, but brushes shoulders with the, like. Well, they're not really seeing these letters correctly, which is not true.
That's not true. That's been disproven many times over.
[00:11:45] Speaker B: Right.
[00:11:46] Speaker A: So that shall be interesting.
[00:11:49] Speaker B: Yes.
So we'll see what happens next.
All right.
So interestingly enough, apparently a new paper, 2026, which is this year, came out in the journal Dyslexia because they're trying to discuss the new consensus of the definition of dyslexia.
So they pulled 58 experts between researchers, educational psychologists, specialists, teachers, and people with lived experience to kind of fix some of those inconsistency and how dyslexia is defined and diagnosed, which really hinders research. Right. Because if you define it one way in this research study, in a different way in a different research study, you can't compare them.
[00:12:43] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:12:43] Speaker B: So I think that's what they were trying to do is kind of see, how do we define it together so that everybody can do research and then compare them.
So it's really interesting that they went through so many notes, but they still left so many issues unresolved that they didn't really finish. There was a lot more questions at the end of the paper that could
[00:13:09] Speaker A: totally also make sense to me because this is just. That's dyslexia, right. I mean, this is the world. This is the waters we swim in every day. So the more I find out about dyslexia as a professional, Right. The more I have questions and the more I go, huh? I'm not sure my initial thought was correct. Here I get, you know.
[00:13:30] Speaker B: Right.
[00:13:30] Speaker A: I think, like, the more I learn, the more I actually question my older practices.
[00:13:37] Speaker B: Right.
[00:13:37] Speaker A: And even some of my current practices, I kind of go, huh? I wonder if I'm really getting at this the best way that I can, just because I'm always trying to sharpen my skills. I think it is interesting because my suspicion is this group is probably affiliated just based on kind of where they're coming from.
What's happening right now is they are working on the next version of the Diagnostic Institution Statistical Manual.
[00:14:11] Speaker B: Correct.
[00:14:12] Speaker A: So right now we're on the DSM 5, which I think was, I don't know, 2013 or something, maybe even older than that, somewhere in that early 2010 kind of situation.
So they're working on the, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual six right now, which is the manual that mental health professionals use to diagnose mental health issues. And dyslexia is in the DSM5 and has one definition, but the International Dyslexia Organization has their own definition of dyslexia.
[00:14:54] Speaker B: Right. And it looks like in this study, too, they also were looking at the ICD9. Yeah, well, it's actually ICD11 now. Okay. And so they were looking at the codes of how you code it when you, you diagnose.
[00:15:09] Speaker A: Interesting.
[00:15:09] Speaker B: Do insurance.
[00:15:10] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:15:11] Speaker B: And so that was not agreeing with everything else either.
[00:15:14] Speaker A: Not surprising at all.
[00:15:17] Speaker B: And so they were like. Well, they were under Diagnosing Dyslexia because of that. Right. Which we. Yeah, we make sense. Right. Because there's, there's cutoffs. And sometimes our students, we just said. Right. 175 genes, they don't follow the same thing.
And so. And all the different things and all the diagnoses and all the different ways that they define it, they don't align. And so that also makes it confusing and gives them less guidance on what to do. To do.
[00:15:57] Speaker A: Yeah, that's. That is very interesting and I, I hope I'm wrong here, but I don't really foresee a world where the dsm, whatever version. Right. The DSM and the IDA and the ICD coding all match someday.
I don't.
I, I think it.
[00:16:23] Speaker B: Yeah, because there's different bodies that do them.
[00:16:26] Speaker A: There's different bodies that do them.
One of those bodies carries their very own eccentricities. I will call that.
[00:16:38] Speaker B: That's a good word. I like that word.
[00:16:40] Speaker A: I just don't see.
I hope I'm wrong and one day we'll just all play nicely at the sandbox together. But I don't.
I don't really foresee that world. So I'm not, I'm not knowing where we go next from here. Like, if we're already showing all these discrepancies and differences and we kind of can't get on the same page and talk about it in the same way.
I don't see that itself changing. So what happens next there?
[00:17:13] Speaker B: Right.
The good news is this did reiterate that structured literacy instruction is.
Has the most impact for most dyslexic and at risk readers.
[00:17:26] Speaker A: So I mean, yeah, I think this is an interesting one because they are trying to get at like actually us being on the not same page is part of the problem.
So that's. That is kind of what the study was trying to address. Like, correct. Hey, it's a problem that we're not all on the same page and we're not really talking the same language.
[00:17:51] Speaker B: Right.
[00:17:52] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:17:53] Speaker B: And then they were also talking about those co diagnoses that we all know happen along with them and how that impacts how they diagnose it also.
So the consensus that they decided was.
That it's a language disability, but they
[00:18:21] Speaker A: still haven't quite made it 100% with.
[00:18:27] Speaker B: Yeah, the consensus was definitely still not 100% on all targets. So it's very interesting that it's why, You know, it's so hard to diagnose and then also so hard to educate everybody in how to see it.
[00:18:51] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. Because it.
[00:18:54] Speaker B: Because there we go.
[00:18:55] Speaker A: Because there we go. Shows are different. So that's fascinating.
[00:18:58] Speaker B: It is fascinating.
[00:19:00] Speaker A: I really kind of love these episodes because it really just lets Bebe very nerdy for a minute and.
[00:19:08] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:19:25] Speaker A: So on kind of the advocacy policy side of things. So the British Dyslexia association released 2026-2030 strategy Shapes by feedback from dyslexic people, families, educators and professionals focused on improving support in and public understanding.
Since adults with dyslexia often hide it at work for fear of judgment. So really they're trying. It's a. A very focused effort to expand supports and awareness and
[00:20:08] Speaker B: public understanding, it looks like.
[00:20:10] Speaker A: Yeah. Which is amazing.
You know, we.
In real time as we record this. It is in fact October, and I think I can't miss the opportunity to say this is dyslexia awareness month. So.
[00:20:26] Speaker B: Yeah, it's an important month to talk about it.
[00:20:28] Speaker A: Yeah, it really is.
[00:20:30] Speaker B: It really.
[00:20:30] Speaker A: It really is. And I think.
I think the more people who tell their stories and are kind of open about their experiences, the better this will get right. I think we are moving in the right direction on that. I. I feel there is more openness to correct talking about it and you know, the idea of like, yes, I struggled and now I this or I Struggled, and I'm still struggling. You know, even that is pretty powerful.
So I'm. I'm interested to see where that goes and kind of what their.
What their actual really tangible goals are here. Sounds like a pretty wide.
Wide policy. So it'll be. That'll be interesting to keep an eye on, you know, and hint, hint, maybe we could do something like that here.
[00:21:40] Speaker B: Right.
[00:21:40] Speaker A: Here's to hoping. Right.
[00:21:58] Speaker B: So I do want to go back because I forgot to tell you talk about this in the AI one.
So it was interesting. Part of their research.
So they identified where words, visual words, go into the AI brain.
[00:22:20] Speaker A: Interesting.
[00:22:21] Speaker B: And those areas responded to written words just like a typical. Like a human brain would. Right.
And when they turned that part off in AI, they could see that AI had trouble reading.
[00:22:40] Speaker A: That is fascinating.
[00:22:41] Speaker B: But they could still understand the images and language in general, which is exactly like.
[00:22:47] Speaker A: Which is exactly like. It just looks.
I don't know. I feel like this makes me.
[00:22:52] Speaker B: I know, right?
[00:22:53] Speaker A: I'm super fascinated. This is very interesting. And that feels.
I don't know that I love that result.
Kind of creeps me out.
[00:23:07] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, it's very interesting.
[00:23:10] Speaker A: I feel like this has a lot of future potential.
I mean, this could be easily replicated, and I think this could lead to a lot of.
I can see very easily using that to inform instruction. Correct.
Which. Yes. I'm all. I'm all for that, but I'm a little creeped out that the AI language model acted like that. That creeps me out.
Fascinates me, but creeps me out at the same time.
[00:23:51] Speaker B: Yeah. Because it's a little too similar.
[00:23:53] Speaker A: It's a little too similar. I don't really think. I love knowing that.
[00:24:00] Speaker B: But interestingly enough, you know, they also say in the article that they really need a lot more research. And obviously it's one thing.
[00:24:12] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:24:13] Speaker B: One thing that they did, but it was just an interesting thing to me
[00:24:18] Speaker A: that I don't know.
Yeah, it's fascinating. And I think.
[00:24:26] Speaker B: And they do say that their models do predict some brain activity, but. And behaviors, but they are not perfect. So it's not like it's an exact replica either.
[00:24:40] Speaker A: Yes, it's not. Right. I mean, we use the analogy of, like, machinery and computers when we're talking about the brain, but we do know it is not.
It is not a. It's not a perfect analogy. It's.
[00:24:53] Speaker B: Right.
[00:24:54] Speaker A: It's something that helps us conceptualize.
So it's useful. It's a useful analogy, but it's not the same thing. Correct.
[00:25:05] Speaker B: Right.
[00:25:06] Speaker A: Right, guys?
Please make me feel better. Yeah.
[00:25:13] Speaker B: So, yeah, he's just a little bit.
Yeah, there's just too much going too fast, I think.
[00:25:21] Speaker A: Yeah, I agree with that.
I agree with that. I think it's hard to keep up with it. It's hard to keep up with it. And it's hard to form a real opinion about where I do come down AI. I mean, really, like a lot of technologies. There are some very cool, excellent, innovative uses. And there are some uses that scare me a lot.
And our ability to kind of keep up and keep it on the straight and narrow, that. That scares me.
[00:26:00] Speaker B: I've seen Terminator.
[00:26:01] Speaker A: Come on.
[00:26:05] Speaker B: My husband keeps bringing that up.
[00:26:06] Speaker A: I know, I know. Well, and like, shows the generation gap too, because my older students will do the, you know, I robot or whatever.
[00:26:16] Speaker B: Yeah, that's right. Yeah.
[00:26:18] Speaker A: I was like, yeah, that I'm old. Be like terminated. And they'll be like, I don't know what you're talking about. I don't even know who Arnold is.
[00:26:26] Speaker B: Oh, that's weird.
[00:26:28] Speaker A: Yep, yep, we're old now.
[00:26:30] Speaker B: Okay, well, Maggie, what's beyond sex? Yeah, I think I might need to change this conversation. It's to going down, going downhill fast.
[00:26:41] Speaker A: Let's see what is going on outside of dyslexia for us.
We are definitely just in the middle of a very always busy, busy time.
My son today at school had the color run and I got to see some pictures and he looked like he was having a really good time. And I just have to kind of say I feel like he's been having a very rough time lately. So I'm just happy to see him have a good time.
[00:27:14] Speaker B: That's good.
[00:27:14] Speaker A: Yeah. What's going on for you, Nicole?
[00:27:18] Speaker B: So Carolyn, our 13 year old, is in volleyball right now for some reason this year we only had one tournament into two games.
[00:27:29] Speaker A: I don't know.
[00:27:29] Speaker B: Yeah, I don't know. So they're gonna do a parent versus child game in October, which unfortunately I'm gonna be at a trunk or treat, but Chris is going to do it. My husband.
So this morning she goes, well, you better get knee pads. And he's like, if I'm going down for a ball, you better just call for name, Liz.
So we'll see how he does.
[00:27:58] Speaker A: Oh, that is so fun. Those are always the most fun. I coached Special Olympics for years and years and years, and we did volleyball and that was one of our ways to celebrate the end of a season. And we would do a parent versus athlete game, and it was just a riot. Like it was always so much fun to watch because, yeah, you best believe I wasn't playing that coaching and playing are not the same thing. But blind people don't play volleyball.
[00:28:32] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:28:33] Speaker A: But yeah, it. It was.
That'll be so fun.
That'll be so fun. And yeah, I would pay to see that. I'm not gonna lie.
I will be at the same Trunk or treat, though, so. I know, right?
[00:28:46] Speaker B: I hope somebody takes a picture.
[00:28:48] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure.
[00:28:49] Speaker B: All right, well, thank you everybody for listening.
[00:28:51] Speaker A: Please follow us on social media and reach out if you have any questions or you would like us to discuss a topic. If you do like our show, be sure to follow and rate our show on your favorite podcast players. This is how we reach more listeners and then we get to help more families. Thank you, everybody.
[00:29:06] Speaker B: Thank you.
