Episode 109-Dyslexia and Self Esteem

[00:00:01] Speaker A: Hi, I'm Maggie. And I'm Nicole. Welcome to the DAC Dyslexia and Coffee Podcast. We're so happy you could join us. We're both moms and dyslexia interventionists who want to talk about our students and children. What dyslexia is, how it helps our kids, strategies to help and topics related to other learning disabilities will all be covered in this podcast. Parents are not alone, and we want to give voice to the concerns and struggles we are all having. This is a safe place to learn more about how to help our children grow and succeed in school and in the world. Grab a cup of coffee and enjoy the conversation. [00:00:35] Speaker B: Hi, everybody. Welcome to episode 109 of Dyslexia and Coffee Podcast. We're going to start today's episode like we do every single week, and that is with the concept of the week. So the concept of the week is our opportunity as practitioners to kind of peel back that curtain a little bit and let everyone in to an intervention session. We like to teach things that either we would directly teach our students or things that we would coach their families and support networks on. This week's concept of the week is self esteem. This is something we talk about a lot with our students and their families. It is something we help bring in counselors and other support people on. But it's also a concept that I think gets kind of misunderstood. So, like, let's define self esteem. So self esteem is the overall opinion we have of ourselves. It reflects how much we feel confident, worthy and capable. So our self esteem can ferry by day, week, month, year. It is not a static set point. Sometimes our self esteem will lower or rise depending on kind of our circumstances. Most humans have a general place where they kind of go back to that homeostasis right where they kind of live. But it really is just that internal feeling about your own self. Are you worthy, confident, and capable? [00:02:25] Speaker A: So welcome to episode 109, which we're going to be talking about dyslexia and self esteem. The emotional toll of struggling with your reading in front of peers. [00:02:40] Speaker B: This is obviously a topic really near and dear to our hearts. And we're gonna. We're gonna talk about some tough stuff today. [00:02:51] Speaker A: Yep. So think about picturing yourself in a classroom. And the teacher asks students to read out loud. And they're going row by row. As it gets closer to your turn, you know your student, your stomach starts to tighten, your palm start to sweat. You start counting the sentences ahead of you and really hoping that you get that easy one it isn't about not knowing the word. It is about knowing that in a few seconds, 25 of your classmates are going to hear you stumble over something that they think is easy. And so today we're talking about, you know, something that doesn't show up on any test or, you know, anything that you can actually see, but it shapes the entire experience of living with dyslexia. Right, and that is how you see yourself. [00:03:42] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. You know, let's think about. Why does dyslexia hit self esteem so hard? Primarily, Dyson, dyslexia is a disorder that affects our ability to read printed words. Our listeners, of course, know it is much more than that. But what we find answering a lot is understanding that reading isn't just one subject in school, it is the basis for every subject. That is why when we talk about accommodations and modifications, we're talking about them over the entire school day across any subject matter. Let's think about for a second. You know, in every single class, really, in math, we have word problems. Even the way mathematical expressions are written, whether they go horizontal, whether they go vertical, that can make a very big difference in our dyslexic learners the way they're interpreting things. In science, there is heavy vocabulary, there is a heavy reliance on understanding data, which is its own language, complex text and history. Again, not only heavy vocabulary, a lot of writing tasks needing to interpret what they've read. So when reading is hard, that kid doesn't just feel bad during language arts class, they feel bad about everything because it seems like it affects everything. [00:05:47] Speaker A: Right. And think about, you know, even in real, like, everyday life, he's reading all the time. Right. We read menus, we read danger signs, we read directions. We have to read emails, emails, text messages. Correct. So all of those things just compound. [00:06:09] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. You know, and it really, I think it really is true that if a person is struggling with reading, it is kind of uniquely public. [00:06:21] Speaker A: Correct. [00:06:23] Speaker B: You know, you can kind of hide a lot of things about yourself in the classroom, but if you're being called upon to cold read something, like in like round robin reading, or called on to read a slide or, you know, you're kind of getting an essay handed back, and, you know, your peers can see that even if a teacher thinks they're being discreet, let's face it, they're. They're not. [00:06:47] Speaker A: Right. [00:06:47] Speaker B: You know, and. And look at. Even up into adulthood, people are reading messages coming in on their phone. People are reading emails out loud or lines of things out loud. It is much more obvious when someone is struggling with reading, which is why a lot of dyslexic learners and the ones we see here. [00:07:17] Speaker A: Right. [00:07:18] Speaker B: They describe school as just being this kind of place where they feel like they're under a microscope, they're being watched all the time. And some of that is actually real. Like, that is because it's actually happening. And sometimes it's just the anxiety piece that starts to kick in for these students with dyslexia. [00:07:41] Speaker A: Correct. And then there's also. Right. A timing issue like we've talked about in the past. You know, dyslexia is not often identified early, even though we like it to be just absolutely. [00:07:55] Speaker B: In a perfect world. [00:07:56] Speaker A: In the perfect world. Right. But like, if it's not identified till 2nd, 3rd, or even later grades. Right. Those children have already absorbed the message that everyone else gets it, but they don't. [00:08:08] Speaker B: Yes. [00:08:09] Speaker A: So by the time that we do an evaluation, a lot of emotional damage has already been done. Right. And learning differences get. You know, it can get treated, but that self concept has already been formed. Right. So you might start hearing them say that they're the dumb one, or I'm slow, or I don't. I just don't try hard enough. And I don't understand why I can't keep up. That doesn't just disappear when we identify dyslexia. [00:08:40] Speaker B: No, it doesn't. I super wish I had the magic wand here. And as soon as we unlock the correct intervention and this student starts to do better, all of a sudden, their self esteem just skyrockets. I wish that is how that happened. Definitely for most kids, it improves. But that kind of internal message of, I'm dumb, I can't do this, it's easy for other people. That message just doesn't disappear. [00:09:21] Speaker A: Right. It is really hard to change your mindset. [00:09:25] Speaker B: Yeah, it really is. [00:09:26] Speaker A: And you have to be very explicit, and you have to do it in a way that, you know, you have to be taught to do it. And honestly, that's not taught very often either. [00:09:35] Speaker B: No, absolutely not. Absolutely it is not. It's kind of like, I mean, conversations I've had with my third grader that lately will just kind of break your heart as a mom is, you know, he. He kind of said, because he was getting down on himself, we were doing some homework, we were doing some reading. And actually he was doing very well. It was some of the best reading I had heard from him for quite a while. And I said, wow, buddy, you. You're doing great. And he's like, no, I'm Stupid. And I said, you know, buddy, I need you to not talk like that. And he just said, well, mom, that's one more thing I'm bad at. [00:10:24] Speaker A: Ow. Yeah. [00:10:26] Speaker B: You know, it kind of just does become like, yeah, well, that's just one more thing I'm terrible at, isn't it? And it was like, oh, buddy. Rough. [00:10:40] Speaker A: And I mean, it's all ages that have that inner narrative that can be just not great. [00:10:48] Speaker B: Not. And it's so hard. I mean, I think it's uniquely different. Uniquely hard on a parent. Right, right. I mean, it is very easy for me to look at my kid and tell you 15 things that he's amazing at. [00:11:05] Speaker A: Correct. [00:11:06] Speaker B: And, yeah, he struggles with reading and he struggles with basic math. He does okay, right. You know, but for him, it's like. Well, that. That he has the most difficulty seeing anything that he is good at. [00:11:23] Speaker A: Right. And that's where it comes up to us. Right. That we have to say those things out loud to them so that they can change their internal script. Right. [00:11:35] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:11:36] Speaker A: Is there an internal script can. That develops over time? Maybe. You know, everybody else finds us easy, so something must be wrong with me, or if I tried harder, I could fix this. Which is really a horrible belief. Right. Because it's not true. It's a neurological difference, and it's not a personal failing. Right, Exactly. It's just the way you learn. Yeah. Or I have to hide this. Right. And then that turns into avoidance strategies or sitting in the back pretending to have forgotten their book or faking an illness, which. That's what my son does. I got a headache. I got a stomachache. I can't go anywhere. And you know. And you're like. But no, I know that it's because today is a hard day. And I know you have to read out loud today. [00:12:27] Speaker B: Yeah. And you do have to go. And you do have to do the thing. [00:12:31] Speaker A: Yep. [00:12:31] Speaker B: Yes. [00:12:33] Speaker A: So. So these beliefs, you know, they sometimes. They often outlast classrooms, right? [00:12:40] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:12:41] Speaker A: Adults with dyslexia frequently describe anxiety around emails, doing meeting notes, filling out forms in front of other people, how many forms you have to fill out between your kids, going into school, going to the doctor's office, anything. Like there's a form for everything. And then even decades after they've left school, they still have that anxiety around those different types of activities. And often they're really successful in their fields. Yes. [00:13:14] Speaker B: Yeah, it is. You know, I can think of a lot of conversations with my own mom, who is an adult with dyslexia. She's never actually been formally diagnosed, but I mean, all of her learning struggles and the way she talks about school. Yeah, my mom is a brilliant, very successful, wonderful human who does a lot of really good things. And yeah, she will also say that, that, you know, well, I. She'll be very forthright. That it really has held her back from even thinking about pursuing more college or, you know, like it was definitely for her the decision of, well, no, I don't even really want to try. Even though she could have definitely done it if she wanted to. [00:14:17] Speaker A: Correct. [00:14:17] Speaker B: Yeah, Yeah. I think something I've seen just over and over again kind of the like, well, if I just tried harder or I think the even more insidious. I don't, I don't even think a lot of adults know that they're doing this to kids. But kind of the implied, well, if you would just work harder. I think a lot of us have gotten much better at not overtly saying that to students. But there's a lot of ways this shows up, right, this effort to outcome gap. So I think one of the things that just takes such an emotional toll is this is actually a psychological phenomenon. So this actually the alpha, that effort, outcome gap. A dyslexic student typically will spend, you know, three to four more times the amount of work on like both time and mental effort. So kind of for an example, right, So a dyslexic external might spend three hours on a reading assignment. It might take their classmates 20 minutes to do this same assignment. When the dyslexic learner turns in their work, it looks worse than that typical reader's assignment. And the conclusion drawn is that, oh, well, that dyslexic kid didn't really try. You know, it just is. It's not good, right? It's a poor quality. They didn't really take their time when really that's absolutely not true. So from the inside, it's the absolute opposite. They tried far more and still landed behind. And when that happens over and over in front of people whose opinion matter to them, that really, really complicates things over time. [00:16:39] Speaker A: And when this situation is repeated enough times, the gap teaches a lesson, right. That has nothing to do with reading and has everything to do with their self worth. Right? Because they, they see, well, my effort isn't mattering to the people that I'm giving it to. So then why is. Why am I trying? So they feel like it might be pointless to try. And it's safer not to try it all than try to be Hot try so hard and then still fail. And so then that's where that school avoidance comes in. You know, they might start acting like they don't care or maybe they start having those symptoms of anxiety or they feel sick every time they need to go to school. And really it's a self protection. [00:17:28] Speaker B: Absolutely it is. You know, and then you do have those students and in high school that you know, they will. When they get an assignment, their assumption is that they can't do it, so they won't try. You know, and that's really where that learned helplessness phenomenon comes in where they will not even attempt to start something on their own. They will automatically assume they can't do it. And really their words will be, yeah, I'm too dumb to do this. I'm too stupid to figure this out, so you need to do this for me. [00:18:17] Speaker A: And I've noticed that with Wilson lately that he'll get a math or a reading thing and he just immediately says mom, what does it say? [00:18:25] Speaker B: Yes. [00:18:26] Speaker A: And I'm like, no, you gotta at least try to read it. [00:18:28] Speaker B: At least try. Right? And that. [00:18:30] Speaker A: And there. [00:18:30] Speaker B: And there is. Right. And like that's why it's so insidious. [00:18:33] Speaker A: Right. [00:18:34] Speaker B: Because here I'm asking you to attempt. I do know it's gonna be hard for you. [00:18:40] Speaker A: Right. [00:18:40] Speaker B: But I'm asking you to attempt this. And it's, it is tough. It comes across often like that kid doesn't care. And they might use the words I don't care. [00:18:54] Speaker A: Right. [00:18:56] Speaker B: But I promise you they do care. Yeah, they do. Yeah. It's very. [00:19:02] Speaker A: Because they can perceive that they're not where their peers are. And I think that makes it so much more difficult. Especially you know, my son's in fifth grade and that's that time when peers are so start to go up. [00:19:18] Speaker B: Yes. [00:19:19] Speaker A: In hierarchy of very much people that they need to impress. And unfortunately that makes it so much harder. [00:19:31] Speaker B: It really does make it so much harder. There, there is like this increased awareness. I'm starting to see it with Aiden too, of like my peers are not choosing to go along with me. I mean Aiden's defense mechanism is the class clown. And it doesn't help that he genuinely is hilarious. [00:19:54] Speaker A: He really is. [00:19:54] Speaker B: He really is. Like genuinely. He is a hilarious kid. And his delivery is good. And so he does most of the time also make the adults laugh, which is, it's, it's not good. I hope this serves him well someday. But it's not serving him well right now because he is starting to get the okay there's three or four other boys in his class that will egg him on and think he's funny. And it. They're not, they are not trying to be mean to him, but they're, they're taking him off track. And then he's got the other kids in his class who are like, knock it off. Like, that is enough. You need to stop. I'm trying to learn. You're being a bad partner. [00:20:41] Speaker A: Right. [00:20:42] Speaker B: Which is, is true in that moment. He is being a bad partner to them right now. And yeah, it's like, it's a, it's a different way that this comes out, but it is at its core, kind of the same thing that's going on. Yeah. [00:21:03] Speaker A: So what can make a difference, you know, according to both research and lived experience, how we can help rebuild that self esteem is really important. Right? [00:21:15] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:21:16] Speaker A: You gotta name it early and clearly. [00:21:18] Speaker B: I totally agree. [00:21:20] Speaker A: Right. Kids do so much better emotionally once they have language of what's happening. You know, usually when we tell students that they have dyslexia, they're actually relieved. [00:21:30] Speaker B: Wow. I mean, the amount of times I've sat with a student and been nervous to give this noose kind of, and then to watch their body posture just relax, that is more often the reaction I get. [00:21:46] Speaker A: Correct. [00:21:48] Speaker B: It's like a, oh, okay, I'm not stupid is usually the next words out [00:21:55] Speaker A: of those kids mouths, separating their effort from the outcome. Right. So like praise the process. How many hours they spent reading something or working on something, what strategies they tried and rather than just the grades they're getting. Right? Absolutely. Because that protects your motivation over the long run. [00:22:18] Speaker B: Right. It shows them why they should try hard. It shows them why they should try hard. Because that effort itself does matter and it may not be translating to that perfect grade right now, but I guarantee you, if you're putting that same effort into something else, I mean, it's one of those things that. Why not every dyslexic learner, but a lot of our dyslexic learners excel at things like sports or music or something else because they can channel that amount of effort. And like when other kids get tired, they kick it up. Correct. And they're like, I know how to try hard. I try hard every dang day. Like I know how to do that. [00:22:59] Speaker A: Right. Find visible, visible role models. Like meeting or hearing about other dyslexic people who are thriving really helps. I mean, it's interesting because we live in Wisconsin and one of our all star pitchers just said out loud that he has dyslexia. Yes. And our students have completely just re. Like, went to him. Like, they just. [00:23:33] Speaker B: Yes. [00:23:33] Speaker A: It was amazing to see, like, all of them, like, oh, my gosh, he's doing this such cool stuff. And he's as dyslexia. Like, I do. [00:23:41] Speaker B: I mean, I don't know those. So as a company, we organized a letter writing campaign to him, and over 60 of our students wrote letters. And they were amazing letters. They really drew pictures. They drew pictures. They included their own baseball card. Card. Which I think is just. It's just so cool. It was the coolest. It was the coolest thing because it really was a. Oh, okay. Here is somebody who is clearly doing fine. He is our starting all star. [00:24:27] Speaker A: He's in the neighborhood. [00:24:29] Speaker B: Knockout picture. Right. Like, and, you know, he's. [00:24:33] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:24:33] Speaker B: And even our students who maybe they didn't connect to baseball. It's not about baseball. Right. It's about just, hey, this is somebody just doing an excellent job in his chosen field who also struggled and was really open about it. That was pretty special. Yep. You know, and it doesn't even have to be like, we had a fun, very recent example of an actual very famous person, and there are very famous people who are quite successful that have dyslexia. But it can also be some of the best things that have ever happened have been, hey, you know that high school kid down the road that you really like and he's nice to you, and he lets you play with him in the park and you play basketball together? Guess what? He has dyslexia. And he's more than happy to talk to you about it. And, you know, sometimes those role models that are maybe not famous people, it's cool to point to the famous examples, and we have countless of them. But finding those people in the community [00:25:40] Speaker A: who [00:25:43] Speaker B: are willing to talk about their experience and are actual, real approachable people, that does wonders for our students. [00:25:55] Speaker A: Correct. You know, kids with dyslexia have a lot of strengths. Right. Verbal storytelling, spatial reasoning, creative problem solving. Believe me, problem solving shouldn't maybe not be so high. Sorry. My. [00:26:14] Speaker B: My son just. [00:26:14] Speaker A: He's. He's getting in trouble lately. But there's. That's another story. But, like, you know, naming those strings. [00:26:23] Speaker B: Yes. [00:26:24] Speaker A: Matters just as much. Right. [00:26:26] Speaker B: You. The way that our students think about a problem, they may not get there as soon as other kids, but the way they approach a problem is so much different than what I would think of. Correct. And that really does matter. You know, I was working with my son on math yesterday. Last night. And he really struggles with, like, basic math facts, addition, subtraction. They're doing multiplication right now. And he can actually state those multiplication facts just because he's. He's pretty good at that working memory piece. So he can pull it out short term. He won't remember it next year, but the way he was thinking about solving problems and the drawings he was making, it was really inefficient for the solving the math. But it was such a, like, engineering brain, you know, it was like, yeah, that is a way you could solve something very complex. It's going to take you a little [00:27:39] Speaker A: bit of time, though, to do this. [00:27:41] Speaker B: Right. But I, but man, I come back, that creativity, that is not some. That is not a way I would have thought about solving that problem. That does not make it wrong. Correct. It makes it take more time. It doesn't make it wrong. I want to teach you the way that's going to get you there much faster. That will serve you better in school. But I don't want you to lose that creative thought either. You know, we're not just filling a gap. We're not just filling in those missing pieces. We're also spotting how amazing it is that your brain works differently. [00:28:24] Speaker A: Correct. And then. Right. Letting a child or an adult decide when and how to talk about their dyslexia rather than having it announced for them, that gives them their control back. Right. And that's an important, you know, role to build that self esteem. [00:28:44] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, it really. It really does. Yeah. So the good news here is dyslexia and self esteem. Right. Dyslexia has a big impact on self esteem. The earlier we address these things, the better and really, the more aware and open and honest conversation that can happen leads to the best outcome for our students. Correct. [00:29:21] Speaker A: So, Maggie, what's happening beyond dyslexia? [00:29:24] Speaker B: Oh, my goodness. My standard answer. Nicole. All the things. No, I feel like this should be just called all the Things segment. [00:29:32] Speaker A: All the things. All the things. [00:29:34] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, that's all the Things. Yeah. So some kind of fun, bittersweet family news. So my daughter, who's a first grader, graduated from speech this past week and I am weirdly having feelings about it. I'm. I'm excited for her. She's worked really hard and she is doing amazing in school. She's just doing amazing overall, and I'm [00:30:03] Speaker A: super, super proud of her. [00:30:05] Speaker B: And also now worried. [00:30:07] Speaker A: Right. [00:30:07] Speaker B: All of a sudden, this was a support that we had and I knew she could count on and I could count on. And now that's gone. And surprise. You cry when your kid gets an iep. You cry when your kid graduates an iep. Surprise. Mom makes you cry all the time. Exactly. [00:30:26] Speaker A: Yeah, that seems about right. [00:30:27] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh. These darn kids. What's going on for you, Nicole? [00:30:33] Speaker A: Well, this morning, I got to buy $400 worth of candy because we decided we needed to be in every trunk or treat this year as an organization. And so I was literally, like, looking at the checkout going, I wonder if that's even enough. Right? [00:30:52] Speaker B: Yeah, I don't know. We. We shall see. We will report back, listeners, because I'm sure you will be at the edge of your seat. Did we have enough? Oh, my goodness. Oh, well, thank you, everybody, for listening. Please follow us on social media and reach out if you have any questions or you would like us to discuss a topic. If you do like our show, be sure to follow and rate our show on your favorite podcast players. This is how we reach more listeners, and then we get to help more families. Thank you. [00:31:23] Speaker A: Thank you.