Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hi, I'm Maggie.
[00:00:01] Speaker B: And I'm Nicole. Welcome to the DAC Dyslexia and Coffee Podcast. We're so happy you could join us. We're both moms and dyslexia interventionists who want to talk about our students and children.
What dyslexia is, how it affects our kids, strategies to help and topics related to other learning disabilities will also be covered in this podcast.
Parents are not alone, and we want to give voice to the concerns and struggles we are all having.
This is a safe place to learn more about how to help our children grow and succeed in school, in the world. Grab a cup of coffee and enjoy the conversation.
[00:00:38] Speaker A: Hi, everybody. Welcome to episode 74 of Dyslexia and Coffee.
[00:00:43] Speaker B: I love that.
[00:00:43] Speaker A: I love saying that.
We're gonna start today's episode like we do every episode with the concept of the week. So the concept of the week is our opportunity as practitioners to kind of peel back the curtain and let everyone into an intervention session.
So we like to talk about things either we would teach directly to our students and or to the parents that we support.
So today's concept of the week is sleep hygiene. I feel like there is a lot of information out there about sleep hygiene right now. It feels like a really big topic.
But sleep hygiene is a set of healthy habits, behaviors, and environmental practices that design and promote consistent, quality sleep.
Yes. Something to aspire to. Indeed.
[00:01:48] Speaker B: Indeed.
So guess what episode 74 is. It's all about dyslexia and sleep.
Yeah.
[00:01:56] Speaker A: Fascinating.
[00:01:57] Speaker B: It is very fascinating, yes. So, very interestingly, dyslexia and sleep issues are closely linked.
So individuals with dyslexia have more sleep disturbances like insomnia, which can obviously impact their learning and cognitive ability, possibly due to anxiety or their unique brain activity patterns that students with dyslexia have.
So during sleep, it is also where, you know, your memory is also impacted. Right. Because that's where your memory kind of develops.
[00:02:36] Speaker A: Right.
[00:02:38] Speaker B: So this creates kind of a cycle. Right.
Reading is exhausting. So then you get word fatigue. Right. Which leads to tiredness, and then sleep problems can hinder that.
And then it hinders also language learning, which is already a dyslexia challenge, which makes good sleep hygiene and medical attention that impacts anxiety, something that needs to be addressed with any student with success with.
[00:03:11] Speaker A: I think this is so fascinating because the study that you found, really, that a lot of.
Based on.
I read a lot about learning disabilities, specifically dyslexia, but also the adhd, anxiety, all of those kind of disorders that really govern the students that we work with primarily.
[00:03:47] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:03:48] Speaker A: And this was really the first time that I had really looked that I had seen a study call out specifically dyslexia and its interaction with sleep. I mean, surprise is not the right word, but also, like, oh, really interesting that actually, they really are going so far, and this was a really large study. It was not a small.
[00:04:16] Speaker B: And there's actually been other studies too.
[00:04:17] Speaker A: Yeah. It's just interesting how. Huh. You know, so people at kind of high risk of sleep disorders, people with dyslexia have a greater chance of having trouble falling asleep or staying asleep, which is insomnia.
That does lead to that cognitive impact.
[00:04:46] Speaker B: Right.
[00:04:48] Speaker A: Our brains don't function on poor sleep, so it makes the dyslexia symptoms worse. Right. It can impact attention, the memory, overall, our ability to learn.
[00:05:02] Speaker B: Right.
And then. Right. Exhaustion increases word fatigue. And it. Also, decoding words is hard work for students with dyslexia. And so, you know, learn leading to daytime fatigue.
So that's when they start yawning. You find their concentration having a problem.
It's not always that. They're just. I know in the study, it's called it laziness, but it really. It's not. Right.
[00:05:36] Speaker A: It's not laziness.
I mean. Yeah, it's not. But I think it gets called that.
[00:05:45] Speaker B: Sometimes because they don't understand that the sleep and how difficult the brain is working.
[00:05:50] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:05:51] Speaker B: You know, the work. The brain is working really hard.
[00:05:54] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. Right. That's what I say to my students all the time. It's hard because it is hard.
[00:05:59] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:05:59] Speaker A: Yeah. This. This feels hard because it is hard. You're not, like. You're not crazy. You're not broken. This is hard because this is hard. Your brain is working really hard. And if it's not sleeping and you're going into your day at a deficit.
[00:06:17] Speaker B: Right.
And now you're working really hard.
[00:06:20] Speaker A: And now you're working really hard.
[00:06:22] Speaker B: You're gonna be tired.
[00:06:23] Speaker A: You're gonna be tired.
You know, and at a certain point, your brain and body is gonna say, stop, stop. And it's gonna shut the whole thing down.
You know, there's that anxiety link. Right. High anxiety is so common with learning disabilities.
It can fuel the insomnia, creating that cycle where anxiety disrupts sleep.
And that lack of sleep also increases anxiety. I mean, round and round a goal, that big cycle. That's that anxiety, depression cycle. Right. I mean, that's in sleep. I mean, and it's insidious because one just feeds the other the other.
[00:07:14] Speaker B: They also found in the study that atypical sleep patterns like longer slow wave sleep and more sleep spindles, which is what is crucial for language learning, is less effective in dyslexia.
Individual.
[00:07:33] Speaker A: So like the way someone is sleeping, so they talk about, right. Like when you're sleeping, there are certain brain waves that can be tracked in sleep. And they're saying, even while these individuals are sleeping, the pattern of their sleep is not good or their rates to.
[00:07:57] Speaker B: Make meaning of information.
[00:07:59] Speaker A: You're not getting that good REM cycle in there.
[00:08:07] Speaker B: And then in 2016, the research showed that in that study, 66% of the subjects with dyslexia had sleep issues, which is a significant amount.
[00:08:18] Speaker A: A significant amount. And again, not a small study. This was not a.
The.
Oh, my gosh, blanking on the words. The amount of people who were studied in this study was large.
[00:08:37] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:08:37] Speaker A: The group size was large here.
[00:08:41] Speaker B: And then this we. There was another study done last year, June 2025, and that was looking at sleep characteristics and anxiety system symptoms in students with dyslexia.
And they found the same thing. Right. They had delayed onset.
As a mom, I can tell you every night, oh, my gosh, it's always the same thing.
And they sleep shorter durations, which I can also tell as mom.
My study of two.
[00:09:15] Speaker A: Right.
[00:09:17] Speaker B: This is something that is very common for us in our house.
So.
And that was not determined on their anxiety scores. That was just based on their diagnosis.
[00:09:31] Speaker A: Based on their dyslexia, which is. I think it's different than some of the other ones have that have come before because they actually did piece that apart. So they actually did call out that. Yes, actually, you know, these were the kids with the, with the dyslexia diagnosis.
Some of them had anxiety diagnoses and ADHD diagnosis, but not all of them. So they really are kind of for the first time going as far like previous studies haven't pieced it apart that way where this one did. So, like, they are really saying no, actually, like the dyslexia pattern is impacting before we layer on all the complexities that come along with that diagnosis.
[00:10:23] Speaker B: And they only found in this study was a little bit different.
It was a little smaller of a study, but they found that 8% of typical development children had sleep issues.
And in this study, it was 44% of students with dyslexia had something.
They call it disorders related to sleep.
[00:10:49] Speaker A: But yeah, the disorders of initiating and maintaining sleep.
[00:10:55] Speaker B: It's a subscale. Yeah, it's like a diagnosis.
[00:10:57] Speaker A: Yeah, like it's a good It's a category of things that could be going on that would impact initiating, going to sleep and then stain.
Yes.
[00:11:12] Speaker B: So, I mean, that's a significant. Right.
[00:11:18] Speaker A: Right. So in our typical developers, 8.3% would fall into that category, but in our children with dyslexia, 44.2%. That is a big spread and a huge, huge discrepancy.
[00:11:36] Speaker B: Exactly.
Yeah.
[00:11:47] Speaker A: Really?
It's interesting and it really lines up with a lot of the anecdotal evidence.
Yes.
That we have. I kind of feel like, honestly, this feels kind of validating. As a special ed teacher who has had these conversations with both children and their parents for more years than I care to share now at this point.
[00:12:17] Speaker B: Right now, there's evidence to be like.
[00:12:20] Speaker A: Yeah, there's evidence to say, actually, yes, this is true. Yes. What you're seeing is not. What you are seeing is not.
It's real. You're not making this up. Kids with these learning disabilities, and I'm using broad strokes here, actually do struggle with sleep, which. Yes. Exasperates the disability itself.
[00:12:47] Speaker B: Correct. Yeah.
I mean, they also showed in another study that students with other learning difficulties also had sleep disturbances.
That one was a smaller study that we saw, so 24% had it. But it's kind of hard to say because you can't really compare that. Apples to apples with both sides.
[00:13:15] Speaker A: Yes. That's what's hard about, like, the little smaller ones.
That's why I think the ones, I think the smaller, more smaller population size studies, I think are still really interesting and valuable to read because they get into minutia. Right, Right. Where the bigger population studies, they allow us to draw larger conclusions and kind of have a little bit more, like, valid results.
But I think they both each have their place because I think I find those kind of smaller, intricate studies, even a case study. Right. Is very interesting.
Does that mean we can extrapolate and like broad strokes apply things to everybody?
[00:14:11] Speaker B: No, that's what those bigger studies help you.
[00:14:13] Speaker A: That's what those bigger studies help with. But at least we could get some context for, like, what could be going on. And I think sometimes those are the ones that I find myself going, oh.
[00:14:24] Speaker B: My God, that's my kid.
[00:14:26] Speaker A: Or, oh, that was me as a kid. Or oh, my gosh. That. I mean, those are the ones names of either current or past students. Like, there they are, pop into my mind, and I'm like, that was exactly what was going on for that kid. Oh, my gosh.
Yep.
But I think, again, anecdotally, this has been things I've been hearing for years and have experienced in my own house.
[00:14:58] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:14:59] Speaker A: Big time. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
[00:15:03] Speaker B: Unless they come over to my house.
Apparently they sleep well.
[00:15:06] Speaker A: Hey, you solved it.
There we go. You live with Nicole now.
[00:15:11] Speaker B: Done.
[00:15:12] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:15:14] Speaker B: Nicole's gonna.
[00:15:15] Speaker A: Nicole's gon. Oh, my God.
[00:15:16] Speaker B: I quit sleep preparation.
[00:15:19] Speaker A: So, like, how do we help our kids? Right? I mean, all this information is good information, but, like, how do we even begin to help our kids with this? Like, is this fixable?
[00:15:33] Speaker B: Well, I mean, there's definitely different things that you can do to help your child get better sleep.
You know, first, unfortunately, good sleep habits, what you started off with, sleep hygiene is actually something that you need to kind of become a habit with, right?
[00:15:53] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:15:53] Speaker B: It has to be something that you do every night.
Like a regular bedtime, regular study hours.
Even if they want to stay up late, it's important for them to have the same bedtime. Yep.
[00:16:07] Speaker A: Excuse me. Yeah, I know. We're doing an episode on sleep and I feel like I'm losing.
[00:16:15] Speaker B: It's making me tired.
[00:16:16] Speaker A: It's making me so tired.
[00:16:18] Speaker B: But then. Right.
They need to be refreshed in the morning.
So limiting screen time. I know that's really hard for a lot of us because right now, especially in this day and age, screens are everywhere.
[00:16:34] Speaker A: They are.
[00:16:36] Speaker B: They say one hour before bedtime, you.
[00:16:38] Speaker A: Shouldn'T be in front of a screen at all.
[00:16:40] Speaker B: At all.
[00:16:40] Speaker A: Any screens, including television screens.
[00:16:43] Speaker B: Yes. But is that realistic for most families? I don't know.
[00:16:48] Speaker A: I don't know. And also, I mean, that's a decision you have to make in your family. I think when you look at the prioritization of sleep and how.
How critical it is to actually functioning, you know, Just had this conversation with my 8 year old last night, not really about screens. He knows I'm kind of tyrannical about it. That's.
Our listeners won't be surprised. But yeah, no, I'm okay being the enemy on the screen time, but, you know, just having his light on in the bedroom.
No, turn it off.
You're so mean. I just want to play with my car.
No, no. I know how critical it is for you to get the sleep you need, and I'm not.
That's one of the. Like, I'm not gonna waiver on it.
[00:17:51] Speaker B: Right.
[00:17:51] Speaker A: Because of its importance to your overall health and wellness.
[00:17:56] Speaker B: Right. Yeah. Putting those screens away is a good thing.
So another thing about the light, though, they have a lot of anxiety sometimes the light is not a bad thing. Having a nightlight, my Kids need nightlight so they would never go to sleep.
[00:18:10] Speaker A: Yeah.
And I think, like, that's the part, too, where knowing as a parent, when it's important to get other professionals involved, because with either a pediatrician's guidance and. Or someone who specializes in anxiety and sleep, it's important to actually consult that person, because they are going to tell you different things based on what is actually going on for your kid.
[00:18:42] Speaker B: Right.
[00:18:44] Speaker A: Having.
You know, I mean, we made the grievous mistake. I think I've actually talked about it on the podcast before.
Last Christmas, a certain magical being who comes into our home once here, gifted a, like, projector light, and it was really cool. And my son was really, really into it.
And, you know, it was probably, like, February.
This kid is not okay. Something is not going on.
And what it was is those lights were so distracting.
My son does have adhd, and light at night is not. Is not good. It's not good. It does not allow the brain to do what it needs to do.
And it took really forever to figure out, oh, my gosh, that was.
That was the thing.
And I'm not saying we're like, ooh.
[00:19:46] Speaker B: We'Re on the other side. And he sleeps so great now.
[00:19:48] Speaker A: No, not even close.
Not even close. But eliminating that one thing helped significantly change the way his brain was functioning and therefore the way all of our lives were functioning. So sometimes it is a simple not fixed. I don't want to use the word fix, because that's not it. We're not fixed.
But sometimes it is something simple, and sometimes it is a lot more complicated.
[00:20:20] Speaker B: Right.
[00:20:21] Speaker A: Sometimes it's a lot of intentional steps.
[00:20:25] Speaker B: Another thing, like, the same thing is the calm environment. Right.
That's okay. My.
All three of my kids needed the same, which is interesting. And at first we were against it, but honestly, they sleep better with the mom than they do without him.
[00:20:51] Speaker A: It's like you have.
There are.
[00:20:55] Speaker B: Every child's different.
[00:20:56] Speaker A: Every child's different.
And I think you have to evaluate what's working now, because what's working now may not be the thing that works in a couple of years from now.
[00:21:11] Speaker B: I think they would hear a noise, and that would wake them up all night long. And so the music being on consistently helps them not hear that.
[00:21:20] Speaker A: Yeah, definitely.
[00:21:22] Speaker B: So it's just been very interesting having to go to the other.
[00:21:26] Speaker A: Like, we did the quiet and the.
[00:21:29] Speaker B: Dark, and that didn't work for us, so we had to go a different way. But, yeah, you know, both my kids.
[00:21:36] Speaker A: Do have a sound machine for that reason.
That it's, you know, they hear the, like, furnace turn on and they're like.
[00:21:43] Speaker B: Ah, yeah, that's that insomnia part. Right. Where you can't stay asleep.
[00:21:47] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:21:48] Speaker B: Yeah.
Another thing is good nutrition and exercise.
[00:21:53] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:21:54] Speaker B: Regular physical activity, which is not a problem for our children, I don't think, in either one of our houses.
A good diet. Most of our kids have good diets. Yep. I would say my oldest, it's kind of the exception, but.
And then the whole thing on caffeine, which as adults went, ha, ha, ha, ha.
But children shouldn't have a lot of caffeine.
[00:22:18] Speaker A: They really shouldn't. And listen, adults shouldn't either.
As much as I'm drinking my coffee right now, I host a podcast called Dyslexia and Coffee. I think we all know I have caffeine problems.
But also.
No, it's not. It does. It does disrupt your sleep.
[00:22:38] Speaker B: It does. It also does other stuff.
[00:22:40] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:22:41] Speaker B: But when you have children, I don't know how else to do.
[00:22:47] Speaker A: What else am I supposed to do?
[00:22:48] Speaker B: Especially when you have children with sleep problems.
[00:22:50] Speaker A: Right. I have to get through my day. Some months.
[00:22:53] Speaker B: Well.
[00:22:53] Speaker A: And I think that's the thing. Right.
[00:22:54] Speaker B: Right In.
[00:22:55] Speaker A: And also, if you have a child with adhd, the likelihood that either you yourself have adhd, Dyslexia. Right. Same situation.
The likelihood that either you have or your spouse or your spouse has is very high. And if you think we outgrow sleep issues as adults.
[00:23:22] Speaker B: No, no, that's not a thing.
[00:23:24] Speaker A: No, definitely not.
So definitely, you know, when more. More than one family member is struggling with sleep.
Yeah. The way our family functions can get a little funky.
[00:23:44] Speaker B: Also medications. Right. A lot of our kids with ADHD on stimulants, which is like a caffeine. Right. Caffeine is a stimulant.
So, like, time of day or the dosage might need to be adjusted to help with sleep.
And that's something you would have to talk to your doctor about.
[00:24:00] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:24:01] Speaker B: You know, but, you know, if there's. Usually what they do is they have you do a sleep diary. And, you know, you show when you take medicines, and then you show how many times they've been up and.
[00:24:15] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:24:15] Speaker B: You know, how many diaries I've had to make.
[00:24:17] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh.
[00:24:18] Speaker B: It's just a lot.
[00:24:18] Speaker A: So many, so many, so many.
[00:24:21] Speaker B: Whenever my doctor says, why don't you just do a diary?
My brain goes, no, I don't.
[00:24:32] Speaker A: And how else are they gonna know they can't make it? You know, I mean, I understand why.
[00:24:36] Speaker B: They have to do it. But do they realize how many times I've had to do them?
[00:24:40] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure.
[00:24:41] Speaker B: Yes. So there's that.
And then there are sleep specialists that are certified to help diagnose the sleep disorder and then have a treatment.
So, I mean, you know, going to those specialists is important too.
[00:25:02] Speaker A: If you can't get through it, bottom line, if this is something truly impacting your child, yourself, your whole.
[00:25:11] Speaker B: I mean.
[00:25:13] Speaker A: It'S important to consult those specialists. They exist. They are out there.
The information can be found. I will say this is one of those topics that I think because it is so relevant right now, there is a lot of articles out there.
Unfortunately, that's a recipe for some Ms. And disinformation as well.
This would not be a topic I think social media is good for.
[00:25:43] Speaker B: No. I would definitely call your doctor.
[00:25:46] Speaker A: I've seen some really terrible advice out there, like don't give your kid a bedtime at all. They'll fall asleep whenever they like. Let them just crash wherever. That's going to be really good.
[00:26:02] Speaker B: My kids would never go to sleep.
[00:26:03] Speaker A: Then I said, I'm not even kidding, you know. And unfortunately there are the. The one off, like, not good medical professionals that are actually putting things out there.
[00:26:16] Speaker B: Right.
[00:26:17] Speaker A: Like that actually was cosigned by a medical professional.
Yikes.
No, don't do that. That's a really clearly bad idea.
But I think this is one of those things that no actually go to a person who does know what they're talking about here. Because it really is as important as it is getting actually good rest and regenerating your brain and your body is actually that important and does deserve its due attention.
[00:27:04] Speaker B: I agree.
[00:27:04] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:27:05] Speaker B: And that comes into our next topic of therapy.
[00:27:08] Speaker A: Right.
[00:27:08] Speaker B: Sometimes older children or adolescents may need cognitive behavioral therapy to help them overcome these issues.
Sometimes, depending on what the diagnosis for the sleep issue is, you might need a special medicine, you know, or like if you have sleep apnea, kids can get that.
[00:27:28] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:27:29] Speaker B: And believe me, they keep asking, especially if you have somebody in your family that has it. It's more common obviously to have it again as a child. So making sure that those things are also impacted.
Right. And medical conditions that you need to have like something to interview. Yep.
[00:27:52] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. It is. Truly falls into like a medical professional's purview.
[00:27:59] Speaker B: Correct.
[00:28:01] Speaker A: So if this is something that you're really struggling with in your house.
Yeah. Consult those medical professionals.
This is the time to do that.
This isn't the go it alone train.
No, not.
[00:28:15] Speaker B: Not.
[00:28:16] Speaker A: But.
[00:28:19] Speaker B: Well, Maggie, what's happening outside of dyslexia.
[00:28:22] Speaker A: Oh, my goodness.
All the things. Speaking of medical professionals, I'm excited. Tomorrow, Nicole and I and one of our other colleagues are going to do some education for some medical professionals.
[00:28:36] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:28:36] Speaker A: You need to go to their office and bring them lunch and educate about dyslexia and how we assess for dyslexia.
So I'm excited for that presentation.
We do these educational endeavors a lot, but this one is kind of one we were sought out to do, which feels fun. So I'm excited about that. What's going on for you?
[00:29:06] Speaker B: Yeah, well, it's basketball season.
It's basketball season.
So our oldest has been playing since fourth grade, and now our youngest is in fourth grade. So they both have three, four, five, six games this week. I don't even know. I can't even track. No, thank you.
[00:29:25] Speaker A: Off that train.
[00:29:26] Speaker B: I love it.
But it was really funny last night because we thought the game was at one place and it was at a different place because they didn't spell it out. They just did the abbreviation of the school.
[00:29:40] Speaker A: Oh, no.
[00:29:41] Speaker B: So, you know, there's a lot of abbreviations that equal place.
So my husband ended up having to call people multiple times because everybody was at the game, of course.
[00:29:51] Speaker A: Be like, where are you? Where are you?
[00:29:54] Speaker B: And the thing.
He was just so funny because he's like, yeah, I just told him, maybe I don't really care who they're playing. Just tell me where to go.
[00:30:02] Speaker A: Where to go. Please tell me where to go.
[00:30:05] Speaker B: So that was kind of a very interesting.
Trying to figure out where school are.
[00:30:12] Speaker A: We supposed to actually be. Supposed to be. Oh, my God.
[00:30:16] Speaker B: Yeah. So we got there a little bit after the.
There's that.
[00:30:23] Speaker A: We got there. We got there. I'm just gonna piece that up.
We got there.
Done did the thing.
[00:30:32] Speaker B: He did the thing.
[00:30:33] Speaker A: I listen. I think parenthood.
I would personally like a participation ribbon. I'm just gonna say that.
[00:30:41] Speaker B: All right.
[00:30:43] Speaker A: Yes, please. I did participate. I did.
[00:30:45] Speaker B: Should love it.
[00:30:46] Speaker A: Yes.
Well, thank you, everybody, for listening.
Please follow us on social media and reach out if you have questions or you would like us to discuss the topic. If you do like our show, please give us a rating on your favorite podcast player. This is how we reach more listeners and we get more.
[00:31:05] Speaker B: Thank you. Thank you.
