Episode 61- What do we do when we get stuck?

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hi, I'm Maggie. [00:00:01] Speaker B: And I'm Nicole. Welcome to the DAC Dyslexia and Coffee Podcast. We're so happy you could join us. We're both moms and dyslexia interventionists who want to talk about our students and our children. What dyslexia is, how it affects our kids, strategies to help and topics related to other learning disabilities will all be covered in this podcast. Parents are not alone, and we want to give voice to the concerns and struggles we are all having. This is a safe place to learn more about how to help our children grow and succeed in school, in the world. Grab a cup of coffee and enjoy the conversation. [00:00:33] Speaker A: Hi, everybody. We're gonna start today's episode like we do every week with the concept of the week. So the concept of the week is our opportunity as practitioners to kind of peel back the curtain and let everyone into an intervention session. We like to talk about things that we would cover either in intervention or things that we would be coaching parents through. Today's concept of the week is plateau. A plateau is a period of stagnation, kind of. Or a period of time where progress is really, really slow. It's inevitable in really anything that we're trying to change. And it absolutely relates to. To structured literacy intervention as well. And so when that happens, I do talk about it with the students because they know. They know, they feel it, too. So we do talk about what is that and that it's a normal part of intervention. [00:01:42] Speaker B: So welcome to episode 61. What do we do when we get stuck? [00:01:50] Speaker A: Take a deep breath, everybody. [00:01:54] Speaker B: You know, so like we were saying, at one point or another, almost every student will get to the point where their progress seems to stall. This can be very frustrating to them and also frustrating really to the interventionists. Right. Because we always want to see our students succeeded. So we're going to talk about what we do when this happens. [00:02:16] Speaker A: Yeah, I think some things to kind of keep in mind about the idea of a plateau. Right. There could be a lot of reasons for it. So I want to kind of COVID what could be going on here before we even get into the what do we do next? You know, so one of this. One of the ways that a plateau might occur is just that stagnant performance. So progress monitoring graphs just show that flattened slope after a period of initial growth. Right. So this kind of may indicate that that student score, they're just no longer improving, at least on paper. [00:02:59] Speaker B: Right. Also reduced effectiveness of interventions. Right. The second strategies that previously drove improvement are no longer yielding positive Results. [00:03:13] Speaker A: Sometimes that just happens, you know, a decrease in motivation. A student's enthusiasm or engagement can definitely wane when they're not seeing that progress, which just kind of further complicates that learning process. [00:03:34] Speaker B: Right. Signs of cognitive consolation. Like, from a learning theory perspective, a plateau can also mean that the student is internalizing the skills and concepts that they learned before making another leap forward. [00:03:57] Speaker A: That happens a lot. That happens a lot. I'm thinking of a lot of my students, right. When they're learning so many sounds, especially when they start in very early stages, they have to learn quite a few sounds and they truck along, truck along, truck along. And then all of a sudden they're like, whoa, they can't put it together. And it's because their brain is working so hard to make those first sounds automatic that the new ones are just. They're not going in. And then once they do, boom, we see another big leap. [00:04:35] Speaker B: Correct. So step one is to identify the plateau. You know, review progress monitoring data and lesson records. [00:04:46] Speaker A: So sometimes it's really important to map that data. Right. We have to kind of. We have to confirm that the student is actually not demonstrating that growth on the targeting skills despite regular attendance. Right. Sometimes it just kind of feels like you've hit a plateau, but once you actually map it out, you're like, oh, no, that actually, no, we are making progress. It's just looking and feeling a little bit different. Correct. Which is good information to have, you. [00:05:20] Speaker B: Know, note the specific skills or sub skills where progress was stalled. So, like, is it short vowels? Is it reading accuracy? Is it spelling of lens? You know, the specific skill that you're. [00:05:33] Speaker A: Seeing that in, which obviously helps you target instruction. Correct. And it helps you have a good conversation with not only your student, but, you know, possibly their parents. Here's where I am seeing growth. Here's what we're trying to address. That's not happening, you know, kind of. So once we've kind of established, okay, we actually are at a plateau, things are not growing at an accelerated rate. Right now we have to kind of take a step back and review our own instruction. Right. How. How are we following this to fidelity and then what other student factors might be going on? [00:06:27] Speaker B: Right. So. Right. So we're going to be checking. How about lesson pacing? Are we going too fast? Right. Are we going too slow and they're getting bored and then not paying attention anymore. Either side of that is bad, right? [00:06:44] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. [00:06:48] Speaker B: Adherence to the scope and sequence. [00:06:51] Speaker A: Have I veered off track as a practitioner? Whoops. Whoops. And Also absolutely happens sometimes a student shows you something in intervention and you kind of can't help yourself and you kind of lean in to what they're saying and then you kind of follow them a little bit, and sometimes you go a little too far. So sometimes it's like, oh, let's bring it back to the scope. You know, am I being, as a practitioner, very consistent about the way I'm offering this student feedback? [00:07:30] Speaker B: Right. [00:07:31] Speaker A: Do they really. Absolutely. Understand exactly what I'm asking them to do? And am I being really consistent that I want them to do it that way every time? [00:07:43] Speaker B: Great. Looking at, are we giving enough opportunities for practice and review? Because as we've said before, our students need 100, 200, 300, 400 times more practice than their neurotypical. [00:08:05] Speaker A: Absolutely. You know, this is one area where I like to bring in some kind of game because when a student hits a plateau and we think it's because they haven't had enough opportunities to practice, that's when I think a game is appropriate to bring in. Because as a practitioner. Right. Yeah. I don't want my students bored. So I do. My instinct a little bit is to like, okay, let's move on. But that's not actually the right thing to do. It's not going to be good for their learning. So bringing in something like a game where they are getting a lot of opportunities, sometimes even more opportunities in a game setting. [00:08:52] Speaker B: To practice that skill. [00:08:53] Speaker A: Yeah, to practice that skill. And it also, I think, helps break it up a lot. [00:09:01] Speaker B: It does, yeah. And you've already taught them a skill. Right now you're just practicing the skill. Consider some external factors that may be affecting their learning. Right. Attendance, are they not coming as often? Fatigue, motivation, attention, something changed in their home environment that can all impact learning. [00:09:27] Speaker A: Oh, big time. I mean, a lot of our students that come see us at the center, many of them are coming right after school. [00:09:36] Speaker B: Right. They're hungry. [00:09:37] Speaker A: They're hungry. Very hungry to be fed. Right. Do feed the bears. Yeah. They need food, they need water, they need to stand instead of sit. You know, just look at all of those factors. I have some students that when they're in a sport, it is harder for them to focus when they're with me. And then I have some students where it's the complete opposite. When they're in a sport, they do an excellent job focusing for me because they have that motivation to do it. They've been able to get all of their physical needs met. It really is student specific. So digging even deeper into what Makes this kid tick. Because all of the work we do here is one on one. So we have the luxury of doing that. [00:10:38] Speaker B: Correct. [00:10:43] Speaker A: You know, another important step, and you know, we don't want to skip this step, is really looking at our informal diagnostics. Right. Looking really deeply at what is this student showing me. Do I have to do some other assessments here? This is a good time to bring in those phonemic awareness assessments. Let's retest their letter sound knowledge. Things may have changed. They have a tendency to kind of forget older knowledge when they're learning something new. [00:11:23] Speaker B: Yes. [00:11:24] Speaker A: You know, it is why we can never. We can never teach that qu says qu and never the Q without the u. Right. It's amazing how that's one in particular that seems to kind of slip off because it's replaced and we don't use it that much. But when we do, it's really important. [00:11:45] Speaker B: To know Q U is there. [00:11:48] Speaker A: It's there. You know, reviewing that, do they actually know that? Can they blend? Can they segment all those things that we think are very secure and they have shown us that they're secure once upon a time. Okay. Are they still there? [00:12:05] Speaker B: Right. And if they're not, you go back and review. Another thing to do is, you know, conduct an error analysis on recent work to identify any patterns that are in. [00:12:19] Speaker A: Yep. [00:12:20] Speaker B: That you can see because that's where. Another way that you'll see if they're starting to have some of that forgetfulness of the past learned skills. [00:12:30] Speaker A: Yeah. You know, and that's really the only way you're going to find that specific. You know, this is, this is the time to do the really deep dive. [00:12:41] Speaker B: Yep. [00:12:44] Speaker A: You know, and record those findings. Right. So make sure you're taking your own notes on that. Correct. You're making notes on that. And then I think something that is skipped by some practitioners is also talking about that with the student in front of you. You know, I'm really noticing this is happening lately. Let me show you some times where this is happening. Bringing the students awareness to it is really, really important. And really they're not going to be able to make any changes if they don't actually have awareness of where they need improvement. None of us can. That's not how humans brains work. [00:13:31] Speaker B: Right. So the next step would be adjust instruction. Right. Pacing, maybe slow down to allow for additional repetition and review. Give the student more opportunities to practice their skills. That's very important to do. [00:13:50] Speaker A: It's really important. And sometimes it's the opposite effect too. You have to know the kid Sometimes slowing down is the answer, but sometimes speeding up is the answer. [00:14:07] Speaker B: Because if they're very bored, they're gonna. How many of us can learn from really bored? [00:14:13] Speaker A: Exactly. If they're bored, they're not. They're not learning. And why. Why just keep beating a dead horse like that does not make any sense. That's wasting everybody's time. [00:14:31] Speaker B: Also, look at intensity. [00:14:32] Speaker A: Right. [00:14:33] Speaker B: Increased session frequency or provide brief targeted practice between sessions. You know, maybe this is the time that they have to do some work for you outside of our intervention. And that's okay, too. [00:14:49] Speaker A: And that's. It's an important part of our intervention. What I say to most of the families that come to see me and most of our families is we are similar to going to physical therapist. Right. If you are injured and you go to see a physical therapist, they will give you exercises. You're going to do those exercises with them. Right. They're going to show you exactly how you do it. They're going to give you feedback, and then they're going to send you home with stretches or exercises or things to do between those sessions. And if you're not doing them, they know. They can tell right away. You know, like the dentist knows when you're not flossing. Right. Same thing. They know it's the same thing. It's like those very targeted practice things, which often means that I have to call a parent into part of my session and I have to show them exactly how to do something, because if they're not practicing it the same way I am, that's also a factor where students can stagnate because. Right. Practice makes permanent, not perfect. Correct. So if they're not getting that consistent practice in the correct manner, it's going to be problematic. You know, another way to adjust your instruction. And listeners will know. We love this one. Right. Making it even more multisensory. So think about ways to make this instruction even more multisensory. Bringing in other tools, especially things where students are moving their bodies. [00:16:55] Speaker B: Right. [00:16:56] Speaker A: I'm a big fan of that, and I do. Right. The brain science is very clear here. [00:17:03] Speaker B: Right. [00:17:03] Speaker A: Research, absolutely. Will back us up on when we are using multiple senses, when we are doing things lots of different ways. That is better for our brain. [00:17:16] Speaker B: Correct. I like this one. Remember scaffolding? Right. Using your tools, like your sound boxes, word chains, sentence frames, things that we kind of talked in other episodes about. But maybe you have left those because they got to a certain point. [00:17:37] Speaker A: Yep. You can bring those back exactly like. That is not bad. Those tools Are there for a reason and just, you know, think about things in our own adult lives, you know, can I independently do this skill? Sure, I can, but there are times where I need a little help to do something. Right. Well, kids are not different. [00:18:08] Speaker B: Nope. [00:18:08] Speaker A: Sometimes they need those scaffolding in place again for short bursts of time, and then we can phase them out again. That's okay. It's good. And it's another opportunity to talk to that student. I think for a little while, we're going to use this technique again. And I also want you to use this when you are not with me. [00:18:34] Speaker B: Correct. [00:18:34] Speaker A: You know, I want you to see that this is something we're doing to help you learn right now. And that, you know, it's a way to teach them self advocacy, actually, because it. It makes them aware of what they need, what tools are available to them that they can use outside of our intervention, especially with our older students, it's really important that they see that part of the work. [00:19:01] Speaker B: Correct. The next step is collaboration and documentation. Right. Discuss the plateau and instructional adjustments with the student, which we were just saying the family. You can use other practitioners, you know, other interventionists. They have ideas bounce off of them. That's what I love about our team. We're always willing to help each other. [00:19:30] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:19:31] Speaker B: Talk to their teachers at school. Are they noticing the same things? You know, anything that you can bring in to get more information, use it. [00:19:44] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. You know, I agree. I think one of the things that makes our center unique and I think a very special place to be is that our practitioners are. We truly are a team. We do talk about things that are going on with students and bring each other ideas. Because sometimes what you really need as a practitioner is a fresh pair of eyes. A fresh pair of eyes to the situation can go, oh, had a kid like that. Have you tried this technique? I actually didn't think about that for this kid. Thank you very much. I love that. [00:20:28] Speaker B: Right, I agree. And remember to communicate with the family. Right. If there's something identified or if the changes to instruction need to be made, the family should be communicated with. So they're on board and they know what's going on in your sessions. [00:20:46] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. You know, I personally never, never want a parent of a student, I see, to not fully understand what it is we're working on when we're in session. [00:21:01] Speaker B: And I think our team is really good about that. [00:21:05] Speaker A: I totally agree. You know, the parent is part of this team, and it really, like I said before, this doesn't work as Effectively, if there isn't some consistency outside of here, you know, I'm happy to drive the intervention, but it has to be reinforced outside of here too. [00:21:30] Speaker B: Right. [00:21:34] Speaker A: You know, and really keeping track of what adjustments you made and when you made them and why. And why? Because that's gonna. That's gonna determine. Okay. Did that adjustment work? [00:21:47] Speaker B: Correct. [00:21:48] Speaker A: Right. I went back to using manipulatives on this certain drill, and it did or did not work. I need to know that. [00:21:59] Speaker B: And remember to keep track of all your dates, too. When did you start that? Why did you start that? Did it work? If it worked, are you continuing it? Or did you just continue it because it didn't work? [00:22:13] Speaker A: Yep. [00:22:13] Speaker B: All those things will give you lots. [00:22:15] Speaker A: Of information, you know, and really allowing enough time to see if it did work. [00:22:22] Speaker B: Right. [00:22:23] Speaker A: You know, in our type of intervention, which is all one on one, I want to see at least two or three weeks of data. Is this working? Is this not working in other kinds of interventions? It's more like four to six weeks. It takes a while. It does. You know, human brains are complicated things sometimes we do have to give it time to see if it is working or not working. [00:22:58] Speaker B: And then if the student starts making progress, continue with that adjusted instruction. [00:23:05] Speaker A: You know, and if your adjustments are not. [00:23:10] Speaker B: Working. [00:23:12] Speaker A: Good thing you've already had a conversation with the parents about you're changing things up. Right. Because this is time where this is actually not. This isn't working. My adjustments are not working. I have exhausted my toolbox, the toolbox of my colleagues. You know, I have really done my due diligence here. I wonder if there could be something going on with this kid that requires more. More diagnostic. Right. What else could be going on? Is there something, language wise, is this a student who may have ADHD and we never knew that before? Could there be something else going on that needs a referral above and beyond what we would do here? And if I am doing my job correctly, I have already documented all of those things, which is going to make it a lot easier on the family to make a decision from there. [00:24:17] Speaker B: Correct. [00:24:18] Speaker A: Okay. Yep. I think we do need to bring in another team member. [00:24:22] Speaker B: Right. So a key reminder is a lack of progress is a diagnostic information. Right. It singles the need to refine and intensify. Intensify. Oh, my goodness. Instruction. And not to move on or to wait it out. [00:24:47] Speaker A: Exactly. [00:24:49] Speaker B: You need to look closer. [00:24:50] Speaker A: You need to look closer. It is a normal part of any intervention. [00:24:58] Speaker B: I agree. [00:24:59] Speaker A: And any lifestyle change. Right. It's a normal part. Like those of us who exercise. Right. You are going to hit a time where you plateau. [00:25:09] Speaker B: Yep. [00:25:11] Speaker A: It's inevitable. It is, it is going to happen. And it is easy to get discouraged. And I think this is especially hard when the student in front of you is highly discouraged and you know, they are feeling it emotionally. I think that's probably one of the hardest jobs we play as interventionists. One on one is that real, true, raw emotion. We see that. But being able to frame this as an absolutely normal part of the process. This is how brains and bodies work. We hit a place where we plateau and then we do have to make a change. And tracking it can be really hard. But it's important. It's information. It does not mean that nothing's happening. Right. [00:26:09] Speaker B: So, Maggie, what's happening outside of dyslexia? [00:26:12] Speaker A: Oh my goodness. All of the things. My standard answer. All of the things. I think one of the things that's happening for me outside of dyslexia, given that it is October, we are doing all the October things. Um, we had Trunk or Treat last weekend in Heartland. It was very fun, but can I just say, extremely busy and exhausting. And exhausting. We gave out 18 pounds of candy plus an entire additional bag of suckers, which I don't even know how much those were, But a lot. [00:26:56] Speaker B: 400 in those. [00:26:57] Speaker A: Yeah. And then we also dipped into a second additional bag. It was a lot. It was fun, but it was intense. [00:27:13] Speaker B: It was, it was intense. [00:27:16] Speaker A: And I think I'm still recovering as we record this. It's almost a week later and I feel like I'm still recovering from just. It was an intensely jam packed weekend. We also went and picked out our pumpkins. My kids slept with their grandparents and that was really, really fun. But also just, you know, the aftermath of. They got a really fun weekend. And now. Now. [00:27:43] Speaker B: And now. [00:27:44] Speaker A: And now it's the come down. What about you? What's going on with you, Nicole? [00:27:50] Speaker B: Yeah, so same thing. It's October. Had a great trunker treat last weekend and guess what we're doing this weekend? [00:28:00] Speaker A: Another Trunk or treat. Another one. [00:28:03] Speaker B: This one is being driven by my 12 year old and I love her a lot but very embarrassingly, she wants our trunk to be a bakery. So she's going to be a cupcake. [00:28:22] Speaker A: She is a very cute cupcake though. [00:28:24] Speaker B: She is a cute cupcake. [00:28:25] Speaker A: She is a cute cupcake. [00:28:27] Speaker B: But she is making her parents feed donuts this weekend and instead of giving out candy, which we will also have candy just in case. Yeah. She is going to apparently Bake a bunch of mini cupcakes for everybody. [00:28:46] Speaker A: Okay. [00:28:47] Speaker B: I love that face. [00:28:51] Speaker A: What is her plan for completion on this? [00:28:55] Speaker B: I don't know, because I told her she has to really start getting going on that. [00:29:00] Speaker A: Okay? So best of luck to you. This better not turn into Nicole Bake's many, many, many cupcakes because I do not approve of that plan. If this is her plan, then you're gonna let her do it? Sink or swim, kid. Sink or swim. I'm the mean one. If. In case anybody doesn't know that I'm the mean one, I'm the Halloween Grinch. Oh, God. Good luck. [00:29:31] Speaker B: Thank you. [00:29:32] Speaker A: I'm gonna need it. Oh, my gosh. Well, everybody be thinking about Nicole. Okay? As you hear this, this will already have happened. So hopefully everything goes well. Thank you everybody for listening. Please follow us on social media and reach out if you have any questions or you would like us to discuss a topic. If you do like our show, be sure to give us a rating on your favorite podcast players. This is how we reach more listeners and and we get to help our families. Thank you, everybody. [00:30:05] Speaker B: Thank you.