Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Hi, I'm Maggie.
[00:00:01] Speaker B: And I'm Nicole. Welcome to the DAC Dyslexia and Coffee Podcast. We're so happy you could join us. We're both moms and dyslexia interventionists who want to talk about our students and children.
What dyslexia is, how it affects our kids, strategies to help and topics related to other learning disabilities will also be covered in this podcast. Parents are not alone, and we want to give voice to the concerns and goals we are all having.
This is a safe place to learn more about how to help our children grow and succeed in school, in the world. Grab a cup of coffee and enjoy the conversation.
[00:00:34] Speaker A: Hi, everybody.
Welcome to the Dyslexia and Copy Podcast. We're going to start our episode like we do every week, with the concept of the week. So the concept of the week is our opportunity as practitioners to kind of peel back the curtain a little bit and let everyone into an intervention session.
[00:00:53] Speaker B: So.
[00:00:53] Speaker A: So we like to teach about things that we would be teaching to our students or our parents that come to see us here. So today's concept of the week is motor planning.
Motor planning is the brain's ability to understand and organize a series of movements needed to perform an action.
There are several steps to this motor planning process.
So one is the ideation, having the idea for the action that needs to be performed.
Two is that motor plan. So organizing the sequence of steps, which involves your body awareness, understanding how to move in relation to the objects in the environment.
3 Is that execution? So actually performing that action, so that requires coordination of the correct muscles in the right order.
And then four is that feedback and adaptation. So using that sensory feedback to adjust and improve movements for the future attempts.
[00:01:59] Speaker B: So related to our concept of the week. Our episode 63 is all about motor control and dyslexia.
Did you know that students with dyslexia can have motor control issues?
[00:02:15] Speaker A: I mean, I personally didn't know that.
[00:02:19] Speaker B: I think that it's very uncommon to know that, though.
[00:02:22] Speaker A: Agree, agree. I think people who do this kind of work fully understand this.
[00:02:31] Speaker B: Correct. But I think it's a shock. Right. Because.
[00:02:34] Speaker A: Agree. It's not something we necessarily associate with dyslexia.
[00:02:40] Speaker B: Correct. Yeah.
So the comorbidity rate between dyslexia and. They like to change terms sometimes.
So developmental coordination disorder, also known as dyspraxia, which has been around forever, is basically, there's this comorbidity rate between. That's really high between those two. What is that? It's poor balance, poor postural Control, fine and gross motor coordination.
[00:03:14] Speaker A: Concerns.
[00:03:16] Speaker B: So thinking about our kids with dyslexia and their handwriting, that's a fine motor coordination.
Maybe they fall a lot. That would be balance or postural control.
Gross motor. Maybe they're not really that great at sports.
Now we're only talking about certain kids. Right. Because some of our kids are awesome at sports.
So, I mean, there's a very big wide variety of things that can be going on here.
[00:03:42] Speaker A: And it could be kind of one all or none of these things. Right. Like we could have a. I mean, we do have kids with excellent gross motor skills, but very poor fine motor skills, or the opposite of that.
I would. Balance.
[00:04:02] Speaker B: Yeah. Honestly, balance. In our offices, we see a lot of poor balance.
[00:04:07] Speaker A: We do. And I think the less associated here. Again, if you're in the know and you do this kind of thing every day or you're really in this world, then you understand that motor control has a lot to do with our speech.
[00:04:23] Speaker B: Correct.
[00:04:24] Speaker A: And so motor control and motor planning can be poor articulation, less clear articulation. So our kind of kids who have very mumbly speech, they're not really articulating every sound. That can actually be a motor planning issue.
[00:04:43] Speaker B: Right.
[00:04:45] Speaker A: That goes along with speech and language. So actually these two things are highly, highly related to each other.
But we don't necessarily think of it. I think people in their brains think motor. We think moving our body. And I.
[00:05:04] Speaker B: Correct.
[00:05:04] Speaker A: I don't know that all of us really think about. Because speech is such a.
We don't think about the way we speak very often.
[00:05:12] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:05:12] Speaker A: So we don't really think about it as movement, but that's absolutely what it is.
[00:05:18] Speaker B: Correct.
So we kind of looked up some studies just to kind of see what was out there.
According to one study, 47% of children with dyslexia had a coordination score at least one standard deviation below their peers.
So basically, they were below their peers in motor coordination.
[00:05:40] Speaker A: Yeah. By a statistically relevant amount. Amount. Yeah.
[00:05:45] Speaker B: Another study found that children with dyslexia were significant weaker in fine motor skills than children without dyslexia.
They didn't have a lot of meat in that study that we looked at, but that's still.
[00:06:01] Speaker A: It's still a significant amount. Amount.
Some of these studies. Right. And this is kind of why we like to talk about these things on the podcast. And even among professionals, it's important when we're looking at a study or we're citing a study, we do want to look for actual numbers.
[00:06:23] Speaker B: Right.
[00:06:24] Speaker A: But I'm Anecdotally, really not surprised here, especially the fine motor skills. Like, just think about handwriting, you know, and the fine motor skills being able to articulate things.
I'm not surprised by that finding, even though I'd like to know more about how that study was conducted.
[00:06:51] Speaker B: What.
[00:06:51] Speaker A: What were we really looking at here?
[00:06:54] Speaker B: You know, these studies were from the National Institute of Health, so they were actually bigger studies, but, you know, still, who knows what their population was that they compared to. You know, you never know.
[00:07:08] Speaker A: That piece probably too, had a little bit of like the meta analysis.
[00:07:13] Speaker B: Right.
[00:07:14] Speaker A: Kind of situation where that is where we look at a lot of different studies so that it's difficult to draw hard line conclusions from those. Because when we're looking at a bunch of studies, they were studying slightly different things.
So that's sometimes where we come up to like, yeah, that we think there's a huge correlation here, but we can't necessarily find causation.
[00:07:41] Speaker B: Correct.
So in the other study that we found, it was an individual profile analysis of a bunch of students with dyslexia and some without.
They found that 75% in this study of dyslexia students experience at least one type of significant motor or balance difficulty in the lowest 5th percentiles, which is pretty low relative to their peers.
[00:08:06] Speaker A: I definitely. So kind of what they're saying here is among the dyslexic learners that were already in that lowest 5th percentile, 75% of them additionally had those balanced postural motor concerns. That is significant and not at all surprising to me as a practitioner.
[00:08:30] Speaker B: Right.
[00:08:31] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:08:31] Speaker B: Based on what we see in our centers and what these are all saying, basically what we're just saying is that it's not unusual for a student with dyslexia to also have some motor concerns.
[00:08:44] Speaker A: And it's just, it's fascinating because anecdotally, like, even in conversations with other practitioners, I think 0% of those people highly statistically relevant.
[00:08:56] Speaker B: Right.
[00:08:57] Speaker A: I think none of those people would be surprised to hear this. And. And still it's really not talked about.
It's not explicitly mentioned in dyslexia criteria.
Even with the new definition coming out, it still isn't correct. Like, it's not actually stated in there, which is. It is interesting to me.
[00:09:22] Speaker B: It is. It really is.
So, yeah.
So talking about some of these things, fine motor coordination is that ability to use those small muscles in your hands, fingers and wrists to perform those precise movements. Right. So this is like involving the coordination of your muscles, joints, nerves to do everyday activities like writing, buttoning, Clothes using utensils.
And really effective fine motor coordination relies on vision to guide the movements. It's a skill also known as hand eye coordination. Right, right, everybody.
[00:10:05] Speaker A: Something I am particularly poor at.
Not good.
[00:10:11] Speaker B: So some examples of fine motor tasks. Writing, obviously, is a big one. Drawing, you know, holding and maneuvering that pencil or crayon to form letters and shapes. Which is why a lot of our students with dyslexia also have issues with handwriting. Right.
Self care. Things like buttoning, zipping, tying your shoelaces, brushing your teeth, combing your hair, feeding things like using utensils, other tools to eat, you know, takes fine motor coordination for that manipulation. So picking up small objects using a scissors, building with blocks when you're younger.
So those are all different things. And there's so many more fine motor coordination. Right. Texts that are out there.
[00:11:00] Speaker A: Yeah, the list goes on and on.
But I think that's helpful for parents. Right. That's helpful for people not in a healthcare occupation or not in the education world to really understand.
Okay, what, what do we mean when we say fine motor control? I do think this is an area over the years I have sensed, right. When families kind of have a question that they want to ask, but they don't feel like they should, they feel like this is something everyone, quote, unquote, should know.
And I have a real heart for parents there because I understand where they're coming from.
And one of the biggest reasons I love doing this podcast is like, yeah, of course you don't necessarily know that I do this every day for a living and I still have to look like fine motor, gross motor. What's the difference? What does that mean?
So I love that we're having this conversation. I think it's important.
[00:12:12] Speaker B: So how can we improve five motor skills at home?
So some ideas is engage in age appropriate activities that require small movements.
You can use play DOH for hand strength and manipulation, puzzles. Those are great fine motor coordination tasks. Coloring, threading beads to build a coordination on like a either yarn or some other things.
Depends on the students. Like what they like.
[00:12:43] Speaker A: Not those stupid seed beads. No.
[00:12:49] Speaker B: I like those.
[00:12:50] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:12:50] Speaker B: Maggie does not so much hate.
That's the OT in me. I think that likes it.
[00:12:56] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:12:57] Speaker B: We're just different people.
Encourage tasks like cutting with scissors or cutting along lines.
You know, those type of things that, you know, games with little pieces, picking them up and having to move them around.
[00:13:14] Speaker A: My kids have been super into the game operation.
[00:13:17] Speaker B: Oh, that's a great game. I love it.
[00:13:20] Speaker A: And again, the two kinds of people in the world.
[00:13:23] Speaker B: I hate that game so much.
[00:13:26] Speaker A: I hate the buzzer. I hate the little tiny tongs. I hate the tiny plastic pieces I really had.
[00:13:32] Speaker B: It really works on fine motorcycles. I know.
[00:13:34] Speaker A: I keep telling myself, this is good. This is a good thing.
Specifically, my son, he.
He does kind of struggle in this area. He's always been the kind of kid. We do have the ADHD diagnosis. He does not have dyslexia, but we have always had the kind of those overlapping concerns that we can't quite put our finger on. But he's. His fine motor skills are not quite up to par. He still has some trouble with, like, scissors. His drawing has come a long way. He now has the interest. Right. ADHD brain.
Now he's interested in it. So now he will sit and do it for a long time. But getting him to actually engage in it has been a real struggle. So in my head, I really have to say this is good.
I'm glad he is enjoying this game, but can I leave the house while you're playing it?
I hate it.
All the things we do.
[00:14:39] Speaker B: So let's talk a little bit about gross motor coordination. So that's the ability to use your big, large muscles, like in your arms, legs, torso, doing those big body movements like walking, running, jumping, climbing.
It really involves that coordination of your skeletal muscles, your bones, and your nerves to achieve that balance posture and the ability to perform those activities.
You require your whole body movement. Right.
And it's very important to develop gross motor skills for your overall development, and it forms a foundation for more complex activities and fine motor skills later.
So basically, gross motor and fine motor need both.
[00:15:24] Speaker A: Yeah, Shocking. Shocking, right? Shocking.
[00:15:27] Speaker B: Need both.
My son has ADHD dyslexia, and he also has a developmental delay. So he uses his gross motor to compensate for his fine motor, which doesn't always work because then he falls because he likes to run instead of walk, you know, so he uses momentum to.
[00:15:47] Speaker A: Kind of get him through.
[00:15:48] Speaker B: Like.
[00:15:48] Speaker A: Yeah, like.
Like a wrecking ball. Yeah, pretty much. Your son and my son very much alike.
[00:15:55] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:15:55] Speaker A: Like a wrecking ball does. Yes. They build up that momentum and then they go.
[00:15:59] Speaker B: They go. Sometimes forgetting to stop.
Yeah, yeah.
[00:16:06] Speaker A: Ask the. Like, dents in my wall at home, Right?
[00:16:10] Speaker B: The fact that we're on our fifth couch since he's been born. Yeah, yeah, us two.
So some examples of gross motor skills are walking, running, skipping, hopping, going up and down stairs.
Those ball skills, like throwing, catching, kicking a ball.
So all those things that use your whole body all at once, you know.
[00:16:41] Speaker A: Balance, and stability, too, like being able to stand on one foot. There's, you know, at your kids, well, check.
[00:16:48] Speaker B: When they're little, they make you do that.
[00:16:50] Speaker A: They make you do that.
We kind of recently had my daughter at her well check. And the doctor was asking her, can she stand on one foot for three seconds? And, you know, she was doing it. Then she looked at the doctor, she said, do you want to see my cartwheel, too?
No, no, no, no, no, no, we don't.
[00:17:15] Speaker B: Riding a bike, you need a lot of balance for that.
[00:17:18] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:17:18] Speaker B: Which is why I don't do that anymore, because my balance is not the greatest anymore.
Maintaining a good posture also is something that requires balance.
[00:17:29] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:17:31] Speaker B: Some other movements are swimming, dancing, sports like gymnastics. That all uses your gross motor cardation.
[00:17:44] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, this is all really interesting. Like, when I think of specific kids that I've worked with over the years and kind of watched them move.
[00:17:57] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:17:58] Speaker A: You know, you can kind of tell when they have that imbalance of, you know, sure, they can kind of get their gross motor coordination going.
But like you said, it's so. It's so necessary that those fine motor movements come along with it because they.
You know, these are maybe those kids that are particularly fast, like, they'd make a great track athlete, but they're kind of like a wrecking ball. They can't. They're.
When they get to the kind of. The finer, more finessed moves. You know, I'm looking at, like, people who are very skilled athletes. You can tell that, obviously. Sure, their gross motor skills are advanced, but they have to, like, work on their hand placement.
You know, like football players who like wide receivers.
[00:18:53] Speaker B: Right.
[00:18:54] Speaker A: They have to, like, their gross motor has to be excellent. And then, like, they have to understand where their, like, toes are.
[00:19:01] Speaker B: Right.
[00:19:01] Speaker A: To put them down, like two feet down, all the things.
It's kind of fascinating to me, actually.
[00:19:07] Speaker B: It is.
So balance and posture control is the body's ability to maintain or restore equilibrium. It's very complex.
It's coordinated by the central nervous system. And they use, like, your body uses sensory input from your visual vestibular, which is in your inner ear, and sensory motor proprioceptive systems to make it automatic and make those muscle adjustments. Right. And these systems have to work together to keep the body center of mass over its base of support, whether that's standing, sitting, walking, or performing different complex activities.
[00:19:51] Speaker A: Yeah. And it's those things you don't really think about.
[00:19:55] Speaker B: Right.
[00:19:56] Speaker A: Until somebody mentions posture. And I automatically like, oh, my shoulders.
[00:20:00] Speaker B: Have to go back.
Oops, get in my chair. Oops. Oops. Oops.
So like that sensory input, right. Is that's when the brain receives that information about the body position and movement from the different systems.
So like the visual system, you know, provides you information about movement in space. Where are you?
And relatively to other things too. Right. Because sometimes that's a problem.
[00:20:29] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:20:29] Speaker B: The vestibular system, which is in your inner ear, it detects where your head is and kind of where it's moving. Right.
Sometimes when you're getting off one of those twirly things at the amusement parks and you're like whoa.
[00:20:45] Speaker A: Or even if you have a really bad sinus infection and you have a lot of pressure in your sinuses, it can affect that vestibular system if you're really, you know.
Yeah. That it's kind of throw.
[00:20:58] Speaker B: That throw your whole body off. Right.
[00:21:00] Speaker A: Oh boy.
[00:21:01] Speaker B: Sometimes it looks like you're walking kind of sideways. Yeah.
So your proprioceptive system, those are that those nerve endings in your joints and muscles and that also provides information on where your body is and where, how it's moving to the brain.
And then your central nervous system that receives all this information, it integrates it and it processes it to generate a appropriate response. Right. So that say if you're like falling over, it's going to start noticing that you're going to the side and it'll rewrite yourself. Right.
And it'll look to see what happens.
How can I fix you before you fall down? Which you know, that's one of the protective parts of your body.
[00:21:54] Speaker A: Yeah. And it's like when that happens automatically, then that's your system working correctly. So we kind of see those kids where like that doesn't really happen.
[00:22:05] Speaker B: Right.
[00:22:06] Speaker A: Or like pieces of it happen but not the whole thing. And then, you know.
[00:22:11] Speaker B: Right.
[00:22:11] Speaker A: Like let's see.
[00:22:13] Speaker B: Right. And then sometimes it can be unreliable if you're like on an unstable surface. Right.
And then the central nervous system uses motor output, which is the multi muscular skeletal system. Right. It produces a coordinated response. So it uses your muscles to counteract the gravity and maintain your balance, which is something sometimes I don't always follow through with. I think sometimes mine's a little off, but same, same.
So just knowing that it's a lot of different systems talking together in your brain and in your spinal cord and all through your muscles to keep you safe and balanced.
And then there's also reactive control. Right. That's when they make adjust your body makes adjustments.
So like if you slip or stumble, you know, that's when your muscles are like, whoa, wait, wait, we gotta regain this balance, right?
[00:23:19] Speaker A: Yeah. That kind of like unexpected turn of your ankle, you know, how does your body respond to that?
[00:23:28] Speaker B: And then there's also a proactive anticipatory control. Right. That's when they're making adjustments by looking like, let's say they're seeing something coming in your view while you're walking. Oh, your body's gonna respond by not hitting the thing that's in front of you and walking around it. Yes.
[00:23:46] Speaker A: Avoid, avoid that, you know, or like when you know you're gonna lift something heavy too. Like your body tenses, correct. What it needs to tense to kind of get ready to do that heavy lifting.
[00:24:03] Speaker B: Right.
And then there's adaptive control. Right. And that involves like modifying your postural control based on what tasks you are in. Or if you're in an environment that's, let's see, a little bit more hazardous, you're gonna like on ice, you're not going to be taking long steps. Right. That's why we shuffle on ice.
[00:24:22] Speaker A: Walk like a penguin. Yes, yes. Yeah.
[00:24:25] Speaker B: Feet up.
[00:24:26] Speaker A: Walk like a penguin.
[00:24:28] Speaker B: So what can we do to improve this?
Well, physical activity like yoga, tai chi, doing functional strength training can all improve balance and strengthen your muscles.
Yeah.
[00:24:42] Speaker A: You know, unless it's so important.
I've been reading about how important it is for like women of a certain age to actually be doing those like strengthening type activities, you know, and not like bodybuilding, but like lifting things that are heavy, making sure we're maintaining that, you know, and if we start that in childhood and make that part of our kids daily routine, we're setting them up to be so much more successful at this later in life.
[00:25:14] Speaker B: Right. And that's also upper body and lower body. Right. Because you want your lower body to be just as strong as your upper body or stronger because you're gonna use that lower body to keep you from falling.
[00:25:25] Speaker A: Yeah.
You know, I once heard, I think I was an OT I knew years ago, you know, where it was like the things that you have to be able to like maintain doing. Right. Like get yourself like from a stand to a sit, from a sit to a stand, which requires two different kind of things.
And like be able to, you know, like bend down and pick something up because like those are all the things that protect you from falling later.
Like, you know, and like from like the floor. So like being able to like stand, to like sit on the floor, to get back up off the floor and be able to, you know, reach for objects, becomes Just such, you know, critical. And the longer we can maintain doing that, the longer we can be a healthy human who can maintain independence.
[00:26:23] Speaker B: Obviously, this is very different for all students. Right. And it's not really talked about, like we said earlier.
But think about if your student has dyslexia and adhd, which we know is a common diagnosis together, they also have a higher chance of motor concerns.
[00:26:41] Speaker A: Yeah, And I like this. So, like, what does this mean? Because we listeners have the lovely opportunity to be talking to an OT today.
Aren't we lucky?
So from the occupational therapist perspective, like what?
Like what does this mean? What implication do parents have? How can we do something about this information knowing that our kids with dyslexia and ADHD are at a greater risk for these motor concerns?
And we know it's critically important to our health and well being.
So, like, what, what do we do here? What's. Why do we have this conversation today?
[00:27:25] Speaker B: I think it's really good to just actually just acknowledge that fine motor coordination can be really tough for our students.
And being aware of it is the first step. Right.
And that's why it's so hard for some of our students to write, cut, color, be able to do the academic tasks that use those fine and gross motors skills.
And like, anything you can do at home to practice those skills will help. Like we gave a bunch of examples earlier.
You know, anything that uses those small muscles in your hands is a great way to build that up.
And then sometimes you really need to have a professional occupational therapist help develop these skills. They do assessments, they can see where they're landing with their visual motor, their motor, spine and gross motor. And that's what they do for a living.
And sometimes you just need to have the professional come in.
[00:28:24] Speaker A: Yeah, I think, you know, always knowing that's kind of something my son has struggled with a bit, you know, and it would just be such a fight to get him to even try things.
But hearing it from someone who was not me.
It was like the day Nicole taught him how to tie his shoes.
And I've been like such a fight, you would just not even try for me.
[00:28:55] Speaker B: Yeah, well, I'm that mom.
[00:28:58] Speaker A: Yeah. I think that's what I'm learning as a mom, and I hate it, but it is true. It's like the more I would, like, fight with him, and that's kind of a little bit her personality too. Like, the more I would try to fight with him knowing, okay, I know what I know, and I know we have to try to build these skills up or he'll just not right.
You know, I definitely knowing when to kind of call in the professional or at least find some creative resources.
You know, my kid would never qualify at school for like direct OT services, but I was able to reach out to the occupational therapist at my kids school and she was able to give me some things that like she sent in with the classroom teacher or she, you know, she was able to make some suggestions that like very much helped, even though it wasn't direct service.
Right, it very much helped. And she was able to just give me some ideas and give the rest of the professionals that do work with him some good ideas.
So even if you don't think your kid's gonna qualify for that kind of thing, it is really worth reaching out.
The longer I do this job and the longer I'm in this world, I kind of feel like, I think doesn't just everyone need ot?
Like, doesn't just everyone need.
[00:30:30] Speaker B: Yes, yes, they do.
[00:30:32] Speaker A: Like, I really just kind of feel like I just. This would so benefit not only our kids, ourselves and just.
I just feel like wouldn't just everybody benefit from.
[00:30:48] Speaker B: Yeah, and that's a good point too. At school, sometimes you don't qualify, but you can sometimes qualify in outpatient occupational therapy for different things.
So there's a different. There's different rules and different settings. And so sometimes you just have to kind of figure out what your resources are in your area and that's kind of the way to go.
My kids go to ot, they don't come to me. They go to an OT that we love, by the way, but they can't come to me.
[00:31:18] Speaker A: I mean. Cause she's kind of the best.
[00:31:20] Speaker B: Yes, she is.
So Maggie, what's happening beyond dyslexia?
[00:31:23] Speaker A: Oh my goodness.
Well, I cannot believe this is true. But it is November.
We have arrived. As we record this episode. We are in November.
There it is cold. It is darn cold. Yeah, today we did miss all that big snow though. Yeah, we missed the big snow where we.
Southeast Wisconsin did get fair amount of snow, but where we are, we're far enough away from Lake Michigan that we didn't get dumped out here. We don't have. Yeah.
Which I'm happy about. I don't. I'm not ready for that.
We have an event tonight as we record this, that it's for Cub Scouts and we have to be outside and I don't want to being a real big baby about it. I asked my mom how I could get out of it today.
[00:32:18] Speaker B: She had any good Ideas.
[00:32:20] Speaker A: She didn't.
[00:32:21] Speaker B: Oh, bummer.
[00:32:21] Speaker A: She didn't.
She said you have to go.
[00:32:27] Speaker B: Thanks, Mom.
[00:32:29] Speaker A: What about you, Nicole? What is going on with you?
[00:32:33] Speaker B: So, kind of funny story.
Apparently I broke my arm. My radial head.
[00:32:38] Speaker A: Well, not apparently. You actually did. Oh, yeah, the X ray said you.
[00:32:41] Speaker B: Did, but yesterday my X ray said it's healed.
The funny part about all this is I did not fall and I did not hurt myself that I know of. And when they took the first X ray, it was already healing. So obviously I had done it a few weeks before.
So, just so you know, medical. Health care workers kind of stink at following the medical directions and obviously don't notice that they break things because I had no idea. I honestly did not think that that was a problem.
[00:33:14] Speaker A: So listeners feel free to write in their little, like, yell at Nicole notes, because guess what can confirm. Not good at listening to directions. Love you, though. Thank you.
[00:33:29] Speaker B: I'm busy. I'm a busy.
[00:33:32] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh. I think every listener who is a parent can hard relate, right?
[00:33:40] Speaker B: Especially when you have kids that are everywhere.
[00:33:42] Speaker A: I give you the grief only because I absolutely know if it was my broken wing that I also would be terrible at actually listening to the directions.
I'm trying, but not. Well, thank you everybody for listening. Please follow us on social media and reach out if you have any questions or would like us to discuss a topic. If you do like our show, be sure to follow and give us a rating on the favorite podcast player. Those ratings really, though, that's how we get bumped up in those algorithms, which means we get to reach more listeners and get to help more families. So thank you, everybody.
[00:34:24] Speaker B: Thank you.
